Why Your Podcast Isn't Growing (And How to Fix It)

Speaker 1: 0:10

with the risk of turning this into just a complete podcast on chat, gpt and ai, which I'm sure we could do. Um, I would love to to just kind of start with background. I love to just kind of highlight where where you got started. Why did you even get into podcasting in the first place? Just kind of highlight where you got started, why did you even get into podcasting in the first place. Just kind of give a little bit of background and context to the listeners as we jump into this conversation.

Speaker 2: 0:31

Yeah, so I went to school. I graduated high school in 2007, which was only a couple of years ago in my mind, but I graduated. How old are you, by the way?

Speaker 1: 0:41

34. I forget Sometimes I have to get reminded by my wife. She's like you're not 33 anymore and I'm like, yeah, you're right, um, but yeah, 34 so we're right on the same age.

Speaker 2: 0:51

Um, right after, I actually didn't pay much attention in high school because I was like I'm gonna work in a recording studio, just a little too confident, um, what I'm gonna do with my life. But I knew I wanted to work in audio because music had like hit me at a deep part of my soul. So, right after high school, went to school for audio engineering didn't really like that took on an apprenticeship, had a mentor who I worked at a recording studio and he basically taught me everything. Then I've worked at a couple other recording studios. This was around like 2010, 2011. And in 2012, I was like I had a coach, like a life coach. This was when coaching was not quite as everywhere as it was now, and so I was like this is actually pretty cool, it was really inspiring. I ended up becoming a coach myself and then I had to get into marketing. I had to learn how to do marketing to get clients, and so I started doing email marketing and doing an early version of a podcast. But podcast was in 2012. Around that time was definitely not at all what it was like today and I wouldn't have called what I was doing a podcast. I was just doing some audio engineering work, some coaching and some marketing.

Speaker 2: 2:09

And then, fast forward to 2016, I wasn't doing as much coaching anymore, I was just doing more marketing consultant work. And I had a client that was like, don't you do audio? It's like, yeah, it's like and you do the marketing. And it's like how hard would it be to do a podcast? And I'm like I can figure it out, like it's got to be easier than doing a whole band. It's got to be, and it was Especially all the relationships of band members and all of the tracks and like writing music is so different and I found it just so enjoyable. So that was 2016. And then I've been doing it behind the scenes for clients for since then and then in 2021, time years start flying by 2021.

Speaker 2: 2:54

I was like you know what, why don't I make content about this? Because I hadn't made content myself. I hadn't, you know, made my own podcast, hadn't done anything like that. I had wanted to, but I didn't know what it would be about, since I had kind of ended that coaching business years ago. And then it hit me like podcast, why don't I talk about podcasts? I didn't see any podcast coaches out there. Turns out they are out there. I just didn't look very hard, which was a good thing, because I probably would have been like, ah, that's already been done. So I just kind of like naively ran into the space and the feedback was amazing right away and so I started, you know, making educational content around podcasts, taking what I know.

Speaker 2: 3:38

And I was kind of bothered at first too, because, working behind the scenes with clients, I had a lot of data and I knew what was working and what wasn't working and like the latest trends and all these things. And I would see people talk about podcasting and I'm like I don't agree with that and I don't know if they were, they were more like on the production side of things. I'm like that's not accurate, this is not accurate, and I'm not the type of person that's just going to like argue or like call someone out in the comments. It's just not like my style. So my kind of way of dealing with that was like I'm going to look at stuff like that but then make my content speak to the truth, like I'm basically going to do the, the the reality of like what I'm seeing, and that was really helpful and it started getting some more attention and clients. So then it would also make clips. I created a service called Content Clips it's my company name. It's just moved like effortlessly and it just things flow. That's the longest version.

Speaker 1: 4:35

No, that's awesome, I love it. I didn't know about your audio background and kind of how you started with that desire from wanting to get into audio from such a young age and it's actually very interesting. Like I chose the high school I went to based on wanting to be in like the computer realm and like I was building websites for like my instructors when I was in high school and then like I ran my own practicum as working for myself when I was in college. So I have a very similar background of kind of having that direction very early on. So it's really cool to see that in you as well. And also just the the being behind the scenes for so many years I can attest to because it's just like the same thing with myself behind the scenes, behind the scenes behind the scenes, and it's like no, like it's time to time to step forward, time to allow the spotlight to shine on me and start to try and share my gift with other people.

Speaker 2: 5:32

Did you have anybody tell you like and like, why don't you do what you do for other people?

Speaker 1: 5:41

In terms of in what sense exactly?

Speaker 2: 5:44

I guess for myself. Myself at least, I had a lot of people telling me like they would see what I'm doing and they're just like, why don't you do for yourself what you're doing for other people? They'd see me like drive results for people and I'm just like talking about all these cool things I'm doing for someone. And then I'm like I had scrubbed my information, like I also like some cyber stuff. I'd scrubbed my information with the internet purposefully. You know, did you not put yourself out there before?

Speaker 1: 6:11

No, it was not in the sense of of teaching and educating. I've just always been like a service provider behind the scenes.

Speaker 1: 6:19

So and it's very interesting that you say it's most people, as I was getting started, were just very supportive but still had no idea what I was actually doing it's just like, oh, computer is cool and nobody actually knows what goes on behind a computer, and that was kind of like the general overview of most of my life and I still I would say most people in my life don't quite understand what I do. I'm just like I'm in marketing or I'm a consultant, and it's like a difficult conversation to try and like talk about driving ads or, you know, growing a coaching business, because the generation above me, they, have no idea what coaching is because that didn't exist as a profession back then. So it's very interesting, but no, it definitely wasn't something where I had that input. Let's kind of dig into, like what is that next step?

Speaker 1: 7:12

Launch the podcast Now. We want to start to get it in front of more eyeballs. We want to see those downloads, you know, start to go in an upward direction. As we're looking at our stats, like what should somebody be thinking about? What should somebody start considering, start doing as they have launched it. They're getting shows out there. Now what?

Speaker 2: 7:33

Yeah, I like to reverse engineer it because some people have different goals. Like some people just want to do it to have conversations. Most people I speak with don't know why they have a podcast. They just like the idea of it and it's like a hobby. Even people that pay a lot of money for their studio setups. They hire me and then I go like all right, so why do you do this podcast? I don't really know. It's fun.

Speaker 2: 7:59

I like talking to people like that's awesome, all great reasons, not like I'm definitely not judging or like you need a reason, but at least identifying like, um, I think, why you want to do it or what you're getting from it. Just bringing awareness to that, I think, helps you show up on the days that it's not quite as fun. Or you're prioritizing your schedule and you're like ah, because if you don't have a clear reason on why you're doing it, you probably will deprioritize it at some point and it'll just fade away. There's a term called pod fade because a lot of podcasts just fade away. So when it comes to like after launching, I think if it hasn't been done already, it's just kind of thinking about like what's the end goal here? It doesn't need to be like marrying something. It doesn't need to be like all right, I'm committed to this thing for the rest of my life. Nothing will change. Nothing can look different.

Speaker 2: 8:56

Podcasts. The show can evolve over time at any time, but I think it's important to make sure, like all right. What are we enjoying about this? What do we want more of? What do we want less of? What's working? What's not working? Because some people, when they launch it, there's a lot that goes into it and then sometimes, when they launch it, it's like they did it that way so they feel like they have to keep doing it that way. Whether it's the format of the show, whether it's the style of interviews that they do with guests, whether whatever it is that they do, initially it's like let's just copy paste this and keep doing it, and that's going to get boring. If that's how it's done, I think it's boring to listen to because it's like the hosts probably are just phoning it in.

Speaker 2: 9:39

So I think leaving some room for flexibility, identifying like all right, let's you know, kind of, let's at least just talk about it.

Speaker 1: 9:48

It's so true because I see this especially in the coaching space there's just kind of like a set way to do things. There's arbitrary goals that people are trying to trying to reach for no other reason other than the fact that they see other people trying to reach those goals and they think that's just the goal they need to hit, like hitting ten thousand dollars a month in income because it's some magic number. But I think it just what you said is it's so important because that flexibility which ultimately is going to come into your actual passion and the fulfillment you get from doing it, which is going to drive your consistency and maintaining it, but allowing yourself to be fluid in how it's done, whether that's you know, you started doing guest episodes and you start now want to start doing just solo episodes instead of always having guests. But you think I need to do guests because it's going to help me get in front of an audience or whatever you were told or you know unconscious belief you have around it.

Speaker 2: 10:46

So I love that part I love challenging the idea of podcasts too, because I don't have a set way like people be like well, what is a podcast like? I don't really. I don't have one set way of a podcast. You know I have a client that millions of downloads for his podcast and he doesn't even record a podcast. I just repurpose parts from other sources. You know workshops, webinars, events that he did years ago. I can still use those today Coaching calls, things like that and it gets millions of downloads and people I have heard say on the coaching calls that then we repurpose the podcast.

Speaker 2: 11:28

I've said your podcast has changed my life. I wouldn't be where I am today without it. And he doesn't have any involvement other than making sure that I am paid to produce that podcast. But you know, like there's and you know it is him, it's not like me doing that, it's like him recording it, of course, but like he's just in his flow serving clients and it's captured on a recording and then the right pieces are used to present in a podcast and people love that and I love that, just for the simple fact of like.

Speaker 2: 12:02

That's what's great about podcasts is it doesn't have to look one way or you know it can look and it doesn't always have to be repurposed, it doesn't always have to be interviews and I I just love the flexibility it has and I think sometimes people forget that it can be fun and it cannot have to be this like job that they show up to, because it could very quickly turn into a job of not looking forward to it, especially if you're doing it or you don't have a team kind of built around it.

Speaker 2: 12:29

and a lot of people don't have a team built around their podcast because they don't have the end goal, so they just show it up like it's a hobby and it's like, well, I'm doing everything or it's not really making me any money, so why would I invest more into it? But these are all things that just could be identified and then work through, because basically, after you launch, the only real two themes kind of to do are growing and monetizing. In my opinion, um, there's, of course, like sub things in there, but, um, growing and monetizing, and and that doesn't look like the same way for everybody. Sometimes it's just like interviewing more interesting guests, sometimes it's picking better topics, sometimes it's incorporating things that you have. Some people will be like I don't really talk about this thing. Maybe you need to bring that into the podcast.

Speaker 1: 13:20

Do you find that there are any particular things that really, as you're in that phase of identifying why you're doing it, that there are any like key things that are like sticking points for people? Like starting a podcast with the goal of monetizing your podcast in so many cases makes it so much more difficult to stay consistent. So I would just like love, like is there any other things like? Or just like expand on that. Like I see it so often, like even myself recently, I've been like producing a ton of like short form content, but it was coming off the back of like surrendering, into not actually caring how the content does, and I did have a couple posts that got a couple hundred thousand views, which was pretty cool. But releasing that expectation allows for you to not have to judge what you're doing.

Speaker 2: 14:20

Yeah, I love this topic because that's huge, like imposter syndrome in content is huge. Because, you know, social media wants us to compare numbers, like that's why they probably put it so much in our face like, hey, this got this many likes, hey, this post is doing 1000 better than your other posts, and it's like i's like I don't even know what that math, what it's just like. And then if you're posting on different platforms, it's too much data for one mind. And then you see other posts, that people's posts that go viral, that probably took way less and it's just kind of maybe silly type of content. You're like here I'm sharing the most valuable thing I've ever learned in my life with people it's got two likes, yeah and with podcasts, because I like it a whole them a lot, because it's a slower form of content. It's not like the dopamine hit of posting on tiktok, which I do a of and I love social media and creating content there, but it's a slower drip of dopamine. It's like you got to be in it for longer than than the 24 hours or whatever the cycle is that the algorithm is giving you.

Speaker 2: 15:37

Um, because the algorithms, you know, they kind of seem like you know, some are lasting longer. Some have a short kind of shelf and with podcasts, if you set it up right, if you have the titles right, the episode description right, they can last for a long time, like years, where people will come back, and podcast listeners. There's a good chunk of podcast listeners that like to complete episodes so they'll always listen to the latest one. And then there's others who will just go through cycles of binging all of your content and listening to a bunch at once and then like not listening for months ultimately puts the test of the person making it and how comfortable they are with that uncertainty that you know people are going to listen one day or that people are keeping going to keep listening. Because I think if the podcast numbers were transparent and I think a lot of people would be nervous if they were transparent because there'd be like this oh, I thought you know, I thought your numbers were bigger On one hand I think I kind of wish that the numbers were transparent of downloads.

Speaker 2: 16:46

It is what it is. I guess you know wishes another way, but people can kind of also act like the download numbers are way more than they are sometimes. So totally, I just think it's a. It's a different way of producing content. It's kind of like, I guess, also any content. It's like how you live your life. Outside of making content. It dictates, like when you make the content, because if life is not going so great and and it's not going so great for a while and then you got to show up on camera and whether you're trying to inspire somebody or it's going to be really hard.

Speaker 1: 17:21

Same with podcast, I think I don't know, yeah, yeah, it's so true what you said about just that longer life cycle of the content, but also how people interact with the content differently. So I know for, like my wife's podcast. So she's got like 152 episodes out now which I'm like super happy with. Like I think a hundred is a big milestone. I think 150 is a milestone, in my books at least. And the really interesting thing is when we saw some of people in her community sending her screenshots of their like Spotify, like year in review, showing how many hours of her podcast that they listened to. And I'm like how is that even possible with like 25, 30 minute episodes? And they're like it's like 16 hours of like podcast listen to. And it's like they're just they've literally listened to like every single podcast. They've listened to them over and over and over again. There's people that have listened to shows like eight times, but her per episode downloads aren't like in the thousands, but you can see how it's like a binge worthy content to her ideal clients. So somebody listens to one and then they just like keep listening, whereas content is consumed so differently from different people. Like I know there's times where, like I'll listen to like marketing school by Neil Patel and Eric Hsu and they're like five minute episodes. So I'll listen to like 12 or you get, you know, gary Vaynerchuk, where those are all just from him talking on stage. But then I listened to the Andrew Huberman lab podcast. He has some podcasts that are like four and a half hours, so it's just like they're all so different.

Speaker 1: 19:06

But what I love about the platform, like you said, is the lifecycle of it being able to just like going back to investing, able to invest in what you're doing.

Speaker 1: 19:17

I think it also changes the mindset in which you approach the creation of it. You need to have a different perspective on things like podcasts isn't going to be this short term monetary success unless you're famous and so you need to have like okay, I'm going to put out a couple hundred episodes like this is going to take some time. This is going to take some consistency, whereas like social media, you might post something and then like the next day it's gone. It got two views and you're like, whereas I have a podcast that I stopped recording in 2018 and I still get views on it, I I honestly don't even know how people are finding the show, but it's like there's that life cycle is something that has really changed my perspective over the last year in terms of focal points for pillar pieces of content for creators, because some things with the same amount of effort you can get a lot more out of it.

Speaker 2: 20:19

Totally and yeah, that's why I love podcasts and I it reminds me like that I love new york shirt. I feel like I'm just I love podcasts. Yeah, it really. You get so much out of it because, you know, kind of like I mentioned, you can make smaller pieces of content from it. People repurpose podcast episodes that they've already published to like Ali Abdaal, who's like a popular YouTuber, talks about productivity and all sorts of different subjects, but he millions of people in his audience and sometimes he'll repurpose older episodes into like mini episodes on his podcast, which I think is a great thing.

Speaker 2: 21:00

And I just think the act of listening to a podcast is so intimate because you know most people aren't watching when they're listening. They might be doing some, they're usually like like I know for myself and I've heard this from many others is usually have like a podcast you listen to when you're doing a particular activity. You know it's usually not when you're like sitting at the dinner table. You know, listening to a podcast with somebody usually it's like you're listening by yourself. Maybe sometimes you're listening on a car ride with someone else, but it's usually pretty intimate.

Speaker 2: 21:33

And I think the podcasts that succeed the most have a listener first focus and they are like I'm delivering this thing to someone, being respectful of their, their ear holes and just like really making something quality for them. And I think that's how podcasts can get away with being kind of different, like five minute podcasts hours, because it's like they they just focus on the quality that they want to provide in that time and it looks different for every podcast. And I think that's so great that the podcasts do that, because there's nothing, in my opinion, more boring to listen to than people that feel like they have to talk to for a certain length of time. I have an hour, so I need to talk for an hour or two hours or whatever they do. Or they heard Joe Rogan and they want to emulate Joe Rogan and it's just like you got to find that thing that works for you, you know.

Speaker 1: 22:31

Yeah, totally. I think that's like the big theme that I see coming through that I really love and appreciate is just so much of like making it your own and just being authentically yourself. Like if you want to create five minute episodes or you want to talk for, you know, four hours like Andrew Huberman, then do it and don't worry about what the result is, because I think there is something about it that and I said this and it was it's like two months ago and and some of our laura's team were were with us in uh, vancouver and I said they asked about being authentic in content and I was like most people aren't patient enough to let authenticity win. And she was like, oh my God. And I was like, but I do think it's really true. I think that with time being your true, authentic self, which I think most people struggle with, I struggle with like it's not an easy thing, but you will attract the people that are drawn to you.

Speaker 2: 24:03

But it may not be as quickly as you want, and that's the big factor. I think people are wanting success faster than it may be coming to them, or they're wanting that result faster. And I think, like you said, understanding why you're doing it is so important, because it may adjust a few of those things. But just trying to make it your own, be authentic, have fun, so that you can actually show up and just create consistently, yeah, yeah, and like I think a lot about like how can I do something in my way that isn't going to burn me out, because I always have like a lot of things going. When you asked about like my how I kind of got started and I'm going to like I'm creating all these different things, but like I'm always wanting to like leave room, like I the way I'm able to create a lot of stuff is by like having space. Mentally, I would say, um, and some of that like when the content I make, like maybe it I'm not able to make it in the highest absolute quality, that looks like something that's like mr beast on youtube or something, and I'm okay with that. And just I think about like I see people that have a lot of like great success and they do something so simple and I'm like, well, if they can do it really simple, why do I think that I need to make it like really complicated? So for myself, like my own podcast.

Speaker 2: 25:05

I didn't want to talk about podcasts at first because I was like I don't. I talk about podcasts on social media, but something about a podcast about podcasts does not sound very fun. And that didn't sound fun. It just felt like just weird. So I bought it for like 20 episodes and then I'm like okay, you know what, I'm just going to start talking about it, maybe no one will notice.

Speaker 2: 25:24

And then I started getting traction and then people were like the feedback was incredible. And then I started doing five minute episodes. I do like a five minute episode on Tuesday and a 15 minute episode on Friday. That's about all the time I have like capacity for.

Speaker 2: 25:37

So it's really like that fits for my life, like I can't overextend myself to do more than that right now, and so that's is what it is. You know I can't like fake that. It's like that's what I can give you, so that's what you get. But I also like experimenting because I'm crazy person Like so I have different accounts that I'll like test things on Um cause I'm like not going to use client accounts to do some like major testing uh, at the level I like to just see extremes. So I'm like not going to use client accounts to do some like major testing at the level I like to just see extremes. So I was like reporting the news daily for like seven, eight months and I only paused because my daughter, or my daughter, my wife and I had a daughter like a month ago. So I'm like oh, congratulations.

Speaker 2: 26:22

Thank you, she's. She's the news, so I can't't, I'm not like reporting the news, but I would post a 15 second news. Thousands of followers like really took off like immediately. It was very polarizing, it was not opinionated three news headlines of the day and I turned that into a podcast. It's a 15 second podcast. I started getting listeners so it's like I was like all right, could I turn? Could I make a 15 second podcast? I started getting listeners so it's like I was like all right, could I turn it? Could I make a 15 second podcast? And I could, you know, and and you know not that I just paused that experiment, but to see that take off and it's like, all right, I could even go to 15 seconds, you know. So people will like tune in if they want to tune in.

Speaker 2: 27:04

And I think, like people love having options and we know, through the content we're exposed to, there's a lot of you know it's not so broad these days. Like you don't have to be broad, you could be so specific. And like people like you need to do more investigative journalism. And I'd see the comments. I've never responded to a comment, I've never looked at the camera with this news account and, uh, it's just something I don't even I forget. It exists that a reminder in my phone, but I'm like in my mind, I'm like I'm not that guy like I'm not. This isn't investigative journalism this isn't.

Speaker 2: 27:39

There's no opinion, I'm just reporting the facts. Go somewhere else for that, you know, and to watch take off and the feedback was kind of crazy because I'm like it's 15 seconds. I've never talked, I've never looked in the camera, you know. No, there's no personality. I literally sound like a robot. People would ask me if I was a robot or if I was AI.

Speaker 1: 28:01

So Well, that's maybe where the AI podcasts will come in.

Speaker 2: 28:06

Maybe I could keep that going, actually, because I'll need to type it in, because I would show up at the same time every day and I would just read the headlines and then sign off, and, yeah, maybe I could just.

Speaker 1: 28:20

It could be done because I've set up, because I've noticed the trend is working. So I've got a Google alert for chat GPT articles and then I just create green screen videos so I can just copy them into like a text to voice, just have it talk into the podcast. That would be a fun experiment.

Speaker 2: 28:38

That is 100 percent, yeah, and with. I know there's like different apps out there that can do it, but I like using descript for like some podcast editing and I know descript has a voiceover function, so I'm like it's got to be like simple. I'm sure to just type out the words um, especially because it's 15 seconds. It's not like yeah, but that, and it's already weird enough to me that people didn't even have any glimpse into my personality and we're like starting to become attached to this character. I guess you could say and then, like when I stopped, people were like where are you?

Speaker 2: 29:14

Where are you? Like it's just the psychology of that experiment. I just find it fascinating and that's the whole thing. It was just an experiment and it's still up. I think about it. I'm like it's and that's the whole thing. It was just an experiment and it's still up. I think about it. I'm like it's very, it's interesting.

Speaker 1: 29:28

Yeah, it's super interesting. I love that you're experimenting with that because it not only gives you like ideas and insights into like new business ideas and new ventures, but it also just proves the concept that everything can work. Everything can work like literally on the the spectrum of 15 seconds to. We've seen, you know, hubrim and lab of four and a half hours, which is like that's longer than the lord of the rings, like it takes me a week to try and listen to an episode of like 1.75. And then we've seen people where you know they're doing solo episodes, where it's you know, two people together. There's people where it's all guest interviews. You know you got Gary Vaynerchuk where it's just people. It's just he's not recording any of those, it's just pulling from workshops and pulling from talks, and you know all of those things where it's just you can see the spectrum of everything can work. You know all of those things where it's just you can see the spectrum of everything can work.

Speaker 2: 30:27

Find what you want to do and you feel called to do yeah, and I talk with a lot of people that I think the idea of anything can work is, at its core, extremely terrifying, because it's like what do you mean? I could just show up as myself, and that's good enough because?

Speaker 1: 30:42

Because people don't know who that is.

Speaker 2: 30:44

It's true, and I think you know, like, oh yeah, I'm just going to hit record on the camera and just start talking and, like, people will be into that, like because we see other content, but when they do it it looks this certain way or whatever. So, you know, it is kind of terrifying to just think like I could do anything, you know, and that's enough, and that's why I like, I think the whole personal journey of just making a podcast is just fascinating to me, because it's so much more than just a conversation. And if you can do everything but then at the same time market that, to me that's where it's like what? Because what do you mean? You could just be yourself and and kind of like, do whatever it is that you want, but it's got to be done in a way that attracts an audience.

Speaker 1: 31:32

That, to me, is like the million dollar question that I love solving yeah, monetization will be will be another episode, but I absolutely love the conversation we've had so far. What I would love to do is you did earlier on in the podcast. You mentioned titles and show notes and you said, like once it's launched, like the big things are. Just, you know pretty much your titles and your show notes, so I'd love if you could just take a few minutes to just talk to the importance of the title of your podcast and how that can be actually reflected in the potential growth of your podcast.

Speaker 2: 32:09

Yeah, yeah. So for solo podcasters, my personal workflow is typically I start with the title. So before I even record an episode, I usually just start there because I know if it's a good title, I could talk about a title like a topic, the main topic. So for me that's how I like everything starts with the title. For interview style podcasts, which are more common than solo podcasts, for interview style podcasts, usually the process I find works best is recording first and then finding the title, like finding the common theme afterwards is way easier.

Speaker 2: 32:47

And the title, a couple things like it should create curiosity. Uh, if you're you know listening, you're familiar with like the more marketing advertising kind of angle. Uh, it should be similar to like a headline, um, similar to a youtube video, but usually a little bit more words. It's not just like you know, like so clickbaity, I guess. So you want it to be like SEO friendly, use keywords that people are searching for around that. And then if you have a guest in the podcast episode, you want to put their name in there. So when people are looking for that person that your episode pops up.

Speaker 2: 33:26

One thing that some podcasts do that I see just get wrong is they'll put like episode 68 with Dylan Schmidt. You know just an example. Just because, like, no one's going to find that through keywords, research, like there's so many episodes 68 out out there, so just using that title that hooks somebody. So that say, for example, someone was like um looking up uh, mike, the best microphone to use, or something like that, so they people search on spotify, youtube, apple podcast, like um, best microphone for podcasting. And then if I had a episode about that was titled best microphone for podcasting. And then if I had an episode about that was titled best microphone for podcasting, if it was literally matched the same keywords, of course it's going to show up, but, like, if I had a curiosity kind of angle to it too is then you know they're going to be more likely to tap that and listen to that. And then once you kind of get people in the door, they're like oh, I already feel a connection with this because, like we said, podcasts are more intimate than other forms of consuming content.

Speaker 2: 34:34

So the title is number one, like as important as your episode show art like people will forgive the show art because and the show art being like a little image that people see when they come across your podcast because it's so little. On mobile devices People spend a lot of time like thinking about that because it's like the only visual thing you usually get. So titles are everything. And then, when it comes to the episode description, the first couple sentences. This is straight from Spotify, but the first couple sentences are the most important because that's another place people will look, they'll see, oh, the episode title. And then they're like I don't know if I'm ready to give 20 minutes an hour of my life to this so they might glance at the episode description and they're not going to likely read the whole episode description, but they'll read like the first couple sentences. So treating the first couple sentences two to three, similar to basically like an extension of the episode title, that's the most important parts to focus on.

Speaker 2: 35:39

And then, when it comes to the rest of the text in the episode description, including key takeaways, which is a great place to do more SEO friendly style stuff where you know the common things that people would be searching for around that episode.

Speaker 2: 35:56

So, for example, this generally speaking freestyling here, but like this episode, for example, you know key, key takeaways, like if you've ever, you know like imposter syndrome, starting a podcast, growing a podcast. Things like that, like just including that in there is great. And then this is just since we're on the topic of like seo you can easily add a transcript to podcasts and, using something like otterai to have like a auto-generated transcript, you can upload it with your episode. That helps as well, because certain podcast distribution services like Apple Podcasts, spotify they'll look at that stuff. Google will look at that stuff when you upload it too. So it's just gonna. Podcasts are an seo machine and um, so using all that stuff to your benefit, not skimping out and just being like, I'll just put like two sentences on the episode description, like, really, just take a minute, it's actually never been easier um, with, of course, ai tools to like create more of that, but those that would be my best suggestions around titles and episode descriptions.

Speaker 1: 37:07

Yeah, no, I love that. It takes me back to. I used to do like a little bit of SEO back in the day, so I love that so much of this is coming back to that. And it's interesting because you could very easily think of your title and the first two or three sentences like your headline and sub headline. But typically headlines aren't always exactly what people are searching for and keyword friendly, so headlines from a marketing perspective might only be curiosity based. So it might be like you know, I'm just trying to think like classic copywriting and it could be like I'm just trying to think of the old one. It was like they all laughed until I sat down and they heard me play.

Speaker 1: 37:51

I can't remember the exact, the exact, like direct response marketing. But you have, unless you're looking at an image or there's something supporting, you don't know what it is. So it's like that intersect of it being what they're searching for or in line with that, so that it shows up and then like if we're going into marketing, it's like then it's the click through rate, it's got to be something that they're actually looking for. So it shows up when they're searching. And then we need that first two or three sentences and the title of the podcast to actually get them to click on it. And the title of the podcast to actually get them to click on it which is like we don't have the ability of like the thumbnail with that we have on YouTube or an image with a Facebook ad Like it really just comes into getting their attention with the title of the podcast. So it is so important.

Speaker 2: 38:39

Yeah, and, and I think like and like how I approach it is there's times where it's like let's lean into like a more SEO kind of headline or title. And then there's other times where it's like this just needs to be like a human kind of touch, where if you only make it and this is kind of naive generalization but if you only make it like SEO, then it's like it has no human kind of thing. You're like this sounds like a robot, this sounds like a robot, this sounds like chat gpt wrote it. But then if you add your human element into it of like some interesting kind of perspective in there or just something that's like you know you can't fake it, it's you, it's more branding. That I think is important to make sure to include in there too, because it's like the extremes right, like if you lean too heavy in one direction it can hurt.

Speaker 1: 39:26

Yeah, exactly, you also don't want people to be listening that aren't actually interested in you. They're only following you because you created content only because you thought people were going to listen to it. But it isn't actually in line with what you want to talk about, what you believe in, what you actually are selling. You know, if I was selling carpets, creating content around chat, gpt probably isn't going to be beneficial because it's going to be useless. I'm not going to be able to monetize it. So, unless I just love doing it, but it's, you know, like if it's in line with you know, my belief is that most people that are using chatGPT are doing some sort of marketing. So there is a bridge there to what I actually do as a business. But, yeah, I love that. It's like finding that happy medium and not trying to play in either of the extremes.

Speaker 2: 40:15

Yeah, and I meet with clients that have that issue of like oh, you do real estate, but on their podcast they're talking about food and things like that. I'm like, okay, there's a misalignment here, because I'm like you want to attract more realtors but it's going to be a long road to get them interested in there, because you're going to have people that are like how many non-real estate people are going to listen to a real estate podcast about? But then they talk about food? Probably pretty unlikely, um. And so, yeah, it does. That's such a great distinction and point I think to make is like um, not trying to trick anybody, not trying to like. Well, if I'd make it like this, because the title takes is pretty quick to write, you know I want more of this, it's. It's not like um wishlist button of like, I'm just going to input this in the title and then that's going to come back to me, you know, yeah awesome, dylan.

Speaker 1: 41:13

Well, this was. This was a ton of fun. Um, I really enjoyed kind of hearing a little bit about your background, kind of digging into um. I wasn't expecting it to go down like the the imposter syndrome route, but I love that because I think it's so important and I've been having conversations with a few people around this, like just getting started, the fear of being able to be consistent, seeing too many other people out there and just understanding that, setting those goals, understanding why you're doing it, having a longer term outlook on getting started and just being consistent and not too short sighted and not overanalyzing those numbers in those early stages and just really making it your own. I love that message because I'm a firm believer that there's so many people out there with a unique gift that can help people and the more we can get those people to put their message out there, the better an impact we're going to have on the world.

Speaker 2: 42:09

Thank you, yeah, and I just have to highlight one thing real quick that you do that's spectacular. That I think is rare. Anybody listening compliment landed on his own show is how present you are and you're not thinking. It's like when I'm talking to you, it's not like you're like, oh, I'm rushing to the next thing where you have some agenda. That's like I need to hit this point, this point, this point. There's just such a naturalness to it and a presence that is like it's better than it's like that's the stuff that I can talk about through content, podcasting content. But you are such a great example of that, of just that bringing that presence to the recording which I know people listening appreciate because it's just. It shows them that level of respect which, like you, do so great. So I just had to say that and thank you for having me. I really appreciate it, Thank you.