Eric, welcome. First off, do you mind explaining just a little bit about who you are and what it is that you do? My name is Eric Silver. I'm head of development at Multitude. I I feel this spiel so many times, like, I just got in my head a little bit because it's like I do a lot of things. I'm head of development at Multitude, and Multitude is a podcast collective production studio and ad sales provider. I am also the host of Join the Party, an actual play Dungeons and Dragons show that's been going on since 2017. I've been the dungeon master for that the entire time, and I'm also the host of Attach Your Resume, which is an interview show about online creative jobs. Can you tell me more about just the first two words, podcast collective? Because people, I think, would hear the word podcast network, and they're like, I kinda know what that is even though people don't fully know what that is. But podcast collective is different. What is a Podcast Collective? So it functions similarly to a podcast network, but I think you're identifying something which is very true in podcasting where people just kind of took terms from other mediums where that they wanted to emulate and was like, oh, we're a podcast network. Like a like a TV network has so little to do with a podcast network, but, of course, that's where they brought it from. And a podcast network just, like, sells ads for you and gets to keep you on their affiliate name. A podcast collective does similar things, but when we started it in earnest in 2018, it was just like a group of podcasts that wanted to be under the same shingle. And our CEO wanted to sell ads for us, But it was never about top down power. It was never about, like, owning IP. We didn't realize that would become such a conversation point coming up in the future, how, like, every network and every new company wanted to own your IP. But we we had been inspired by, you know, artist collectives, but also there were other podcast collectives like The Herd in DC was a big point there. So we're like, oh, we're not a network because we're all kind of like starting it together. We're a podcast collective, but it functionally does similar stuff just with maybe more clear eyed vision of what we wanted out of our relationship and where we thought podcasting would go. And is it typically for podcasts that have already started? It started out with people who had their own podcast. Join the party began in 2016, and our first show, Spirits, which is our mythology podcast, started in 2015. And, well, I was in a bunch of the our friends who we knew on the Internet were like, oh, hey. We have some podcasts together. Let's tour together. Let's go to conventions together. We're we're shouting each other out on shows so much. We should probably have a name that all unifies that. There's also a thing that, you know, a lot of us wanted to get into audio and podcasting full time, and it's funny how much more people take you seriously when you sound like a business and not just a group of people. So we made multitude, and then we made a, a multitude email, and we immediately got inquiries for us to consult for them. That's actually how a bunch of us who wanted to work in podcasting full time, like, we finally got momentum going to actually do it. We we consulted on a podcast that came out from a public radio station in Chicago. It was a classical music station, and they had a a podcast about Studs Terkel, like the the the landmark foundational journalist. And they were like, hey. Can you do our marketing for us? And we're like, sure. I I we definitely can while I'm, like, doing my full time job at the same time. And that's that's kind of how it all started. We did it just to do it, and I think that's a good enough reason to do most things, especially in a nascent medium like podcasting. Amen to that. Yeah. And I resonated with something on the first episode of attach your resume. You said about getting into podcasting and how basically, like, not getting anybody to kind of return your calls essentially. And it was just kinda like a lot of closed doors, and you're like, we'll make our own door and walk through that one. Did I interpret that correctly? Yeah. You absolutely nailed it. You know, podcasting is so funny because it's almost like the next evolution of such an institution of public radio and radio as it is. I deeply remember in 2014 getting into podcasting like so many other people with Serial and with Start Up, the 1st show from Gimlet. And I was like, oh, I love this. I love this mode of storytelling. I want to get into it. And I had no ability to do so because no one would teach you. There were like 2 programs that were both in the New England woods, and they accepted like 10 people. I didn't learn how to edit audio for 2 and a half years after I first wanted to get into it because it was impossible. And I especially with NPR and like the public radio suite there, like, you need to be a college student to get into their intern programs. So and I had found it when I was 23. So the door was literally already closed in my face at 23. I was too old at 23 years old. It it's funny how, you know, building your own door is always possible on the Internet. It felt like something that there were so few doors and they were all closed that it was, like, both very demoralizing, but also it was like, well, I guess it's fine. I mean, there's nothing that we've learned more in podcasting here in 2024 that, you know, there are no masters to bow to. You can do whatever you want because of how decentralized podcasting is. And I think we're seeing that with how Spotify is really trying to convince everyone to go to video. But it's a it's a move for Spotify, the company, not for podcasting the medium to seed such like someone so many creative decisions to the medium to, like, YouTube and and video, which is so different to why we're all doing this. And from what you're seeing today, watching the podcast evolution continue to unfold this year alone, this, like, push towards video from YouTube, from Spotify. I wasn't at the last podcast movement, but people talking about the big takeaway was video and just saying video, video, video. There was one word for podcasts. I feel like in 2024 is just video, you know, which that's been there for a while, but there's just so much more of a push for that now, when you are either conceptualizing shows, or just like looking at current shows, what are you noticing in terms of incorporating video? Because obviously, podcasting, like you said, decentralized. And there's this thought of, like, do I go audio? Can I go audio anymore? Or does it have to be video? Decentralized can almost feel like a thing that's in the way now instead of something that is more freeing because the fact of it's being everywhere and it could be everywhere. You're like, do I go in 80 different directions? Which direction do I go in? That was a strange question to ask you. But if you understood a question from that I do understand. I got I understand what you're saying. So, man, there's so many things that are in my head right now. I think some things that we're not seeing the full picture of when we decide what whether we wanna be audio or a video show is like, do I have the skills to do it? Right now, I'm already disappointed in myself. We had spent a lot of time with the nice camera that I own, and it's very difficult for me to use because I'm not very good at video. I am an audio person and this is, like, a lower level of this. And, like, there's just more technological knowledge. The most popular job, I think, out there right now that is booming is someone who can cut social clips for Instagram and TikTok. I know a guy. And and that and they have, like, the skills that everybody wants, like, with the good captions and high quality and cap and turning it out quickly and efficiently and doing a lot of stuff that it's like I can conceptualize, but it's very difficult for me to execute in video editing software because it's something totally different. I think this also reflects just the movement of social media, the collapse of Twitter, and how, like, Instagram and TikTok kind of owns everything. It's also kind of a base level understanding of why those things are good because, like, you know, no one leaves TikTok. I see all the time on websites with popular shows where they're like, Oh, we had a popular TikTok clips, and that's why we're good at what we do. And like, it's such a lottery. This is this is something that I have heard Taylor Lawrence, the very, very talented and popular technology and Internet reporter say. But, you know, we're in such an a lottery economy now where it's like you just get randomly get picked, and that's what happens and that's why you're successful. And I think video leans into the lottery economy because of how it's related to, you know, getting on the algorithm. But if we remember, all of us who've been around on the Internet for a while, we've already won been in one pivot to video, which crashed the entire creator economy there in the mid 20 tens. You know, there's a Wikipedia page for the pivot to video. No, it's really funny. It's a really funny read. It's also like if we remember why Patreon started, Jack Conte was making videos to like, okay, go style music videos on YouTube, and he got, like, $10 from Google AdSense from an incredibly popular video that took him like months to make of 1,000 of dollars. And he's like, there has to be another way. And then he invented Patreon. And like the fact that we are seeding the like the ground of audio to other people kind of means that we're not remembering what happened in near Internet history, and we're setting ourselves up just to, I guess, kind of enrich Google and Spotify more instead of, like, letting ourselves be free. Now the problem is that you've identified both the strength and the weakness of of podcast, which is the RSS, and it involves a lot of marketing. I do like video. We cut social clips. That's why we pay our video editor so well because they're very good at it. But I think that's more about like playing the algorithm as much as you can, but not seeding everything that is a podcast to the algorithm, which I think that, you know, when you get on YouTube and it becomes a video, you can't edit. And I think that audio editing is one of podcast's biggest powers to make this turn like 90 minutes of tape into a concise smarts, maybe fill in parts where you wish you would ask questions better or you you correct wanna correct something and turn it into, like, a 55 minute killer audio episode. And I think that we're seeding a lot of power by doing video only. That's why a lot of our shows, including attach your resume, which we which is our newest show that we built around this idea because we've been launching it and developing it in 2024, where it's like we wanna set this up to be good for clips. We've invited as many people as possible into our studio, which we've set up a very nice video set for, but, you know, we're still going to edit. We're and we're gonna cap cut clips if we get, like, hot fire 90 seconds and also use, like, the language of video editing where we can have, like, jerky cuts. You know? But the actual product, the episodes are audio only so that we can use all the tools in our tool belt as, you know, audio goes. Switching gears for a second, but I feel like it's a bit of a unicorn when I meet somebody that works in podcasting and also a podcast host. How do you suggest someone approach the idea of narrowing in on a specific topic? Oh, that's a good question. You know, it's funny. The new thing I've been saying is that I'm a part time podcaster, and I do full time the company I've built around the podcast. Because I think that there's a real striation between podcast host talent if I'm being obnoxious about it. But that is how a lot of people, see themselves, especially with the amount of celebrity podcasts that are out there. It's like the celebrity comes in, a lot of other people around them do all the work and then the celebrity leaves. So it's like there's a real divide between talent person on the microphone and someone who works in podcasting, whether in a technical sense, whether you're like a, an engineer or you sell ads or you do the creative and development like I do. Like, it's it's a business. And I really hope that more and more people see it as like a creative business and something you can be a part of. And you can work there without being talent, but also now not being, like, allergic to being talent that you're so comfortable with the with the medium and always that you do it. I imagine every sound engineer probably plays guitar or keyboard in their own time. I know before I even recorded my first podcast episode, people would assume that I actually already had a podcast just because I worked in podcasting and would, like, edit podcasts. So they're like, you must be a podcast host. And I'm like, I have never even been on a podcast before. Like but there's that, halo effect, I guess, they call it. I like that though because I guess, you know, you see it as a skill. You see being on the microphone as a skill instead of just like a given that it's like, oh, talk into the mic, talk on the mic. There you go. So I think you're you're already elevating into a higher Oh, yeah. A 100%. Like, it's so not just, like, turn it on and go a 100%. There's no law. Maybe there should be, you know, but like, there's no law that you can't do that. But should you do that? Should you not analyze, you know, what you're doing, make it better and more interesting for the people that you're making for? I think so. And 9 times out of 10, if we use the celebrity example, they've been doing it for years, and they have experienced that carried over or something. But for, like, the rest of us that don't have that experience and wanna get better at it. So going back to the to the idea here because Yes. I will I will answer your your original question. Yeah. I'm curious if it's possible because I I don't know what to tell people because I'm a nerd around this stuff that we're talking about. And I'm like, I don't have that many passions. I'm trying to find more passions. But then most people I talk with, they're like, I like this, this, this, and this. It's, like, 5 different things, and they all don't seem connected. And I could almost see that, from the outside looking in at, like, you. How do you do it? It's funny. I some of my passions have developed on microphone, so I think that's where I've been very lucky. You know, like, I was a high school English teacher when I was listening to podcasts and getting into it for the first time. And now I'm teaching podcasting at a college level, so it was nice to, like, come back around and be able to to apply, like, something I care quite a lot about, which is, you know, good teaching, pedagogy, praxis, all that good stuff. And now it's come back for podcasting. And the same thing for tabletop games for Dungeons and Dragons. It's like I learned how to do that at a high level on the microphone, and now I'm putting I wrote my own tabletop RPG, which has just come out, Model Our Nation Congratulations. If if you're if anyone's interested. Thank you. But, you know, I only I learned that by being making content in the realm for so long. What I would say is twofold, and maybe it's two sides of the same coin. One is find some hobbies to protect. It is such the default that we monetize our hobbies and our passions. I just started getting into making ice cream. I love ice cream and I got like I bought some, like, nice ice cream parts and I some like a good ice cream machine. I got some good cookbooks and I were working on it and I shared it with a friend of mine. And the first thing he said was like, Oh, you got a brand this. You've got to start selling this ice cream. What are you gonna call the brand of your ice cream? And I'm like, dog, I am just sharing this with you because I cannot eat a full quart of ice cream that I make myself. Like, come on. Would I talk about it on podcast? For sure. I'm not gonna make a whole podcast around it. I'm not gonna make a TikTok of it because Godspeed, I don't I don't want to. It's mine. The other side is, like, fully content brain. And this is my advice for almost everything in podcasting. Why should this show exist? Is your hobby can you talk about your hobby or your passion in a way that doesn't exist already? And maybe you are so good at this hobby, and you've never gotten a chance to talk about it publicly. That's a great reason. Maybe you are in a underrepresented group, and you don't get to talk about something basic. Whenever someone comes to me with a movie podcast and they're from an underrepresented group in media, re, not straight white men straight white Christian men for that refer I'll add on to that. I'm like, you deserve to make your straightforward movie podcast. Go off, please. I do wanna listen to this. I really do. If you think that you're coming at this from a different angle that you don't think exists or maybe your hobby is underrepresented in content, then go ahead. But, like, if you are just contributing to the morass of shows in this subject matter, don't feel like you need to make content about it. Keep it for yourself. I haven't verified this. So I'm saying this, like, kind of out of turn, I guess. But one thing when they say that I wanna make a podcast about this, or I'm going to make a podcast about this, or I've been making a podcast about this topic that I really enjoy. There feels like a, I could keep doing it if money came in, but if money doesn't come in, then I don't know if I would keep doing it, but I can keep doing it until the money comes in. And 98 or 99% of the time, if not more, But he doesn't come in and then they keep doing it and then maybe they start to resent it or they start to like pod fade or whatever. And it just kind of hit me like, I wonder how much of not lottery, but how much of I see myself hopefully being like a celebrity one day, like a podcast celebrity, or I saw it in a Netflix TV show. She was a podcast host, and she made it look easy and had a lot of freedom. I wanna maybe have it as a job someday. I wonder how much of that is driving decisions. Oh, 100%. I think that there people only see 2 modes. Either you're destitute and unknown, and there's no money coming in and you're losing money on your subscription fees for capcut and your and Libson and everything or your Joe Rogan or your caller daddy. And those are the only two choices. I 100% think it's like you are just doing this for long enough for you to be chosen by the lottery. And I think that ignores a lot of people. Going back to the patron example, a lot of people who make wages living have a life, a middle class of podcasts, which I consider myself a part of, because, again, I'm not a full time talent. I make a decent amount from join the party. And, you know, Amanda, my my wife and the CEO of multitude is on multiple shows and, you know, it pays our rent. But we also have our other job, which is multitude, the company multitude, the production company. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I wish that there was more in a spotlight on being a working artist in podcasting instead of waiting for your lottery ticket to be picked. The way you frame that of waiting around until I'm found is the most succinct way I felt like the backfilling of the lottery economy for podcasting. So I really appreciate you saying that. What do you think is the best, smartest approach for podcasters to take as they start to consider video, say that they have been a primarily audio focused show? Oh, boy. It's tough. I mean, the thing is videos come for all of us as more and more people get into short form video. And I think it's it's mainly for the marketing. On attach your resume, we try to talk to as many different types of creators as possible. So we talk about journalists and writers, but also podcasters and, video people and streamers and stand ups, and all of them have needed to make some sort of video component to participate, I think, in the marketing. Josh Gollman, who is a stand up comedian who's who's so funny, did a lot of his work that people knew him from on Twitter, but now had to develop a newsletter and video clips to promote him as a TV writer and also as a standup. So it's really is coming for all of us. I think that learning how to do social clips or maybe hooking up with one of your colleagues or friends who know how to do it and then paying them is a good idea if you have any sort of money to distribute. But at the same time, if you like audio, I just wouldn't cede the ground to video. I am a Dungeons and Dragons person, and I have a lot of people in my life who play Magic the Gathering. And we they get jerked around quite a lot by the parent company who owns Dungeons and Dragons and Magic, which is the toy conglomerate Hasbro, who have really been, like, trying to figure out what to do ever since the Barbie movie has popped off. Like, they're really trying to get into IP. Something that one of my friends said to me, he said that a lot of the time, they've been pledging to do these massive rollouts of Magic the Gathering cards, which have become more and more fandom based. It's almost like Fortnite. We're like the Avengers are here and Star Wars is here. Lord of the Rings is here. Right. But he's like, yeah. And now they're saying they're going to put out like 5 new series a year. And he's like, yeah, companies say all the time they're going to do something and they do it for a few years and then they pivot. So we're not going to live with it forever. So much like the first pivot to video, which did sink quite a number of companies, I think we can look at a college humor. Right. College humor invested quite a lot of energy and time into the pivot to video, putting videos on Facebook, and then they got destroyed by their parent company. And now it's become dropout. Like, there's always another turn if you are flexible and you don't put all of your eggs in 1 basket. So I think you just need to ask yourself what you wanna do. I think there is some merit to participating in the marketing of short form video, but I just don't think there's any reason to see the entire ground just because of a few surveys from Gen Z who do watch their podcasts on YouTube. But again, as I said before, I think it's a confusion of terms now that so many people have seeded the word podcast to also mean a conversation between people on video who have these microphones. You know what I mean? Where the microphone's in the shot. Like, they're calling that a podcast just as much as they're calling serial a podcast. And those are 2 totally different things. And where can people, learn more about? What should they check out? Multitude dot production? Yeah. You're gonna go to multitude dot productions if you're looking for someone to help you start your podcast. You want ongoing podcast production. We make podcasts every week, so we can make podcasts for you every week. If you're in Brooklyn, you can rent our studio. We have a beautiful super brookley, video set that you can you can rent as well. But check out our shows. Join the party, dungeon and dragon show if you're interested. I think I'm the best DM in podcasting, so you should check that out and attach your resume. If you wanna hear more conversations about this stuff with a lot of people who are really in the weeds doing the work online. You have some really cool ones coming up. 1 with Taylor Lorenz, one with Jack Conte, and some other folks that are already on the feet. So cool. I'll make sure to link to those in the episode description show notes of this episode. So click that. Thank you again, Eric.