My guest today on the podcast is Jay Yow. Jay is a recording engineer, mixing engineer, and producer for the podcast the James Altucher Show. Linking with Jay was a really cool experience for me because James Altshire is someone who I've loosely followed for well over 10 years now. And James has a book, not Jay, who I'm talking to in this episode, but James. James has a book called choose yourself that really stood out to me years ago, and it helped me at the perfect time. In fact, I think now would be a great time to revisit that book and read again too. There was one thing that James talked about that he did, and it was off beat. And it stuck with me all these years later. I think about it every week. You know those cashier checks that servers would use to write down orders at diners? Well, he would order stacks of those. and then he would challenge himself to make lists all the time saying that you get better at making lists the more you do it. It's kinda like a muscle, an idea muscle. So you would suggest making lists of 10. Didn't matter about what. For example, if you were stressed about money, you could make a list of 10 ways to make extra money. or if you're feeling down, you could make a list of 10 things that would make you happy. I thought it was a fun and creative way to exercise your brain, And I've done it on and off for 10 years, and I still think it is a great exercise for creatives. Anyways, back to Jay. How to throw that in there. Loosely related. So in this episode, Jay shares his journey of how he got into the world of audio engineering, and podcast production. He also gives some great tips through his story about networking and how to approach finding work in this industry. Whether you're a podcast producer or just remotely interested in audio production, you'll definitely wanna hear this one. A quick note about this episode before we dive in, I'm leaving this one unedited. I'm actually thinking about increasing the number of episodes I do here on digital podcaster and the interviews that I feature with people and part of that might be including more raw episodes like this. So if you enjoyed this, I would love for you to give me a shout on social media at digital podcaster Here's my conversation with recording, engineer, and podcast producer, Jay Yow. Please enjoy. This is the show for creative entrepreneurs who have a message to share and want to live a life of freedom. Learn how to grow your network and net worth. Hear from exciting guests and more. My name is Dylan Schmidt, and welcome to digital podcaster. Jay, do you mind introducing yourself to my audience who, by the way, I don't know if if anyone's told them today, beautiful audience. One of the most beautiful podcast audiences that listens SquadCast just so you're aware. but do you mind introducing yourself and sharing a little bit about who you are and what you do? Sure. my name is Jay. I usually go by Jay the engineer because, you know, I I love tech. I love production so much. I just go by Jay the engineer. Yeah. So, I started starting from Malaysia, and then I came to the state, you know, I wanted to win a Grammy so badly. I'm like, I'm gonna come to the States, go to the school here, and then try to win a Grammy, and that dream seems way off right now that I'm in podcasting. Yeah. So I can't just say -- -- Grammy before, by the way? Like, what would it -- I so my idea, Grammy, would be a, I think best best mixing would be yeah. So best mixing or best producing would be would be the category that I will want to win. in any -- Can we practice with it? And the nominees are -- Yeah. In the nominees. Right. Mhmm. I love it. Okay. Sorry. Okay. But, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So before I came to the States, I'm a engineer in, in Malaysia as well. So I went to school, went to the school of auto engineering, SAE. I'm not sure if you heard about it, school of auto engineering, and then I start interning at I think 18, or 17 or 18 in studios while I'm going to school. So I have, like, a lots of experience in the studio scenes. And you're expecting now. Right? Sorry? You're nineteen now. Right? I wish. I wish. I'm 35 now Yow 36. 35. But, but, yeah, nineteen nineteen sounds so long ago. But, yeah, so, like, you know, I was well versed in the in the audio audio side of things. And then after a while, I'm like, I I wanna win a Grammy. I really want to win a Grammy I'm like, how can I do it? So I have to look up school in the States because that's the easiest gateway to get into, you know, to the states and get into the industry. And then I look up Fusil University in Florida. So I went to Florida, for school, And when I got to Florida, I have a huge culture shock. I didn't know anything about Florida men. Oh, for, white men until I get to Florida. And I see, like, how crazy things are in Florida. But, yeah, so, yeah, so I went to school in full sale, and then I went to New York City. I after I graduated, because my friend was there. So I started interning in different studio. I was actually fired from a studio, from a well known studio when I was interning because, are you still in Florida, by the way? No. No. I'm in Georgia right now. Georgia now. Okay. Okay. And I and I'm sure you know now. What what held were you when you moved to the US? Oh, I'm pretty old then. I think I I'm pretty sure I'm already, like, 2324 when I can test it. Yeah. So I've been looking in New York for, in in Malaysia for a while before I came here. So you've been definitely in the US long enough to know that, like, there's the US And then there's, like, people from Florida, and then there's, like, it's kinda, like, so different. You know? Like, people in their, like, pockets of living. So you got fired from a studio. Yeah. I can tell you which studio. It's, it's called Avatar Studio. it's weird that they that you can fire an intern. so the reason why I was being fired is Yow know, I was really excited to, you know, I really excited, and, I was so happy to learn the internship in Alphata studio. It was a dream studio. It's called it's Yow it's called the power stations. you know, and then the hierarchy back then Yow I think it might be a little bit different. The hierarchy back then if you work in the studio scenes, you have a very defined hierarchy. You have in you have intern. And then you have GA general, general assistance. And then you have assistant engineer. And then you have engineer, and then, of course, you have boss and management and stuff like that. So I'm at the lowest at the lowest of the the the totem pole. So the practice is every, I I I I think we only do 3 days a week So the 3 days, we're getting, the studio at, like, in the morning, 8 o'clock or so. And then we have to is it it's a it's It's a very, historic studios in New York City. So they own the whole building, and it's like 3 or 44. So when we go into the studio, when we open the oh, we first of all, we have to wait for them to open up. Then we have to go to our own floor, you know, where we put all stuff. And then we have to go to basement to grab all the cleaning supplies. Oh, the paper tower, paper, everything, and then we go floor by full floor to clean everything, like, from toilet have to be Splunkless. And then, you have and then you have to refill the the hand soap and everything. And then when you're refill it, you have to make sure it didn't see any air bubble in there. So there's a very, very strict rules. And then, you know, go each floor by each floor, And then, and then, you know, you know, then then we grab all the, you know, all the trash and everything that that usually takes an or an hour a half. So that's the life of an intern in in a classic studio scene. yeah. And so something a lot of people aren't aware with or aware of, you know, like, I've interned at a studio here, and the owner was like from New York, from Brooklyn, New York, grew up in, like, you know, lifelong New Yorker Descript he moved to California. I think, like, maybe this this time, it was probably, like, 5 or 10 years before I had met him. and he was just like, man, You don't know how easy you have it. I'm not gonna make you do all this stuff. You know, when I was, like, you know, interning, it was, like, so different in, like, you'd be talking about the eighties, you know, like, the things we had to do, it was basically, like, reminds me of, like, a motorcycle out walk club that was Basically, like, you gotta next to, you know, bury a body for us. If we ask you to, you better be driving out with that body and, you know, take it. It's like I thought we're just making music or songs. No. It it that's how it is. I mean, now it's different. I think now, you know, everyone's like, I'm gonna be kinda back this is not that long ago. This was, 20, I would say, 13 or 14. or 15. I can't remember, but during the time. And and, yeah, that's exactly what we have to do, and we have to take turns and go out and buy groceries, like, supplies us, like, you know, coffee, and it has to be a specific farmer's market. And then by, like, you know, if the client today require, ask for fruits, we have to go and buy fruits. If the client is like, hey. I want beer right now, or I want something. Yow have to go across town and get it for them no matter. And then you have to do it as fast as possible. You can't be like -- And we're not -- Yeah. And we're not even touching, like, gear or track that a client is doing at first. It's like, don't even look at this thing yet because you might mess it up. You know? And it's like, I just got here. and specific ways of, like, dusting and cleaning. Yeah. There's so much more cleaning and housekeeping involved when starting out. And it's funny because I think now with how creative people are coming into it. And we have these ideas of like, hey. I want a Grammy or hey. I wanna, like, make music. Like, we have somewhat similar backgrounds even though, like, I'm board and raised in the US, but, like, similar in the sense, like, you know, same age. I wanna do audio engineering, same thing studying audio audio engineering. and thinking like I'll be able to flex some creativity upon this role that I'm embarking on And I am dusting and, you know, being as orderly as possible and cleaning out coffee makers Like, there's there's not much creativity there. It's more actually, like, militarized, version of how keeping that feels like stressful. It is. But, I mean, that I mean, I've I think there is a benefit of doing things first because that sort of trained me or trained people to to be paying attention to the little details, pay attention to details. Like, Yow know, like, oh, you want the you want to make sure everything is spot, you know, you know, spotless. Is it called spotless or sparkling or, you know, dustless or whatever? Like, clean. and, and, you know, if you feel your hand soap to, like, the top and no air bubble, that means, you know, you're like, you're doing everything right. So there's a there's a benefit of doing those things, but, you know, it's it's it's hard work. one thing that I'd realized that if, you know, in intern doesn't do all those things, then, you know, like, you you you sort of able to see, in the future, like, when they do other things that Yow know, they maybe miss a track, miss they miss, like, a e they miss, like, some sort of, like, chain or something like, you know, something like that. So Yeah. And the the social aspect of it managing relationships, you know, with yourself on showing up on time, and the discipline, you know, of doing all these tasks that require repetitive tasks and then managing, like, how you are with your coworkers, And those things, like, I definitely see the value in it. It's just, to me, was funny of, like, oh, you know, and then on top of that, Yow know, the the owner saying, like, you don't even know how nice I am to you right now too. Like, I'm just like, I don't know what to do with this, but I did. I will say I maybe this is like a tribal thing. I've I found a way to increase my value really fast as like an intern by -- social media because this was, like, 2013 around the same time. I was 2012, maybe, somewhere around there. and Instagram was, like, popular, but wasn't like it was kind of mysterious. Like, how do we make cool photos? And I was really good at making cool photos of the studio. So it was kinda nice because I, like, would bust out these things on my own feed. And I was just like, hey. And they were like, what? Do this for the studio. It's like, alright. And then it just became this, like, Dylan's, like, got this, you know, thing that, like, was kind of mysterious. At the time Yow, it's probably different, maybe. But at the time, I was like, oh, I got my own little value thing going, you know, do not translate. Yeah. That's really smart. Well, I don't have any value. That's why I got let go. I remember the reason why I got it's not the reason why I got let go. I I just, it's sort of a rant a little bit. So I messed up one time. It was a bill cost be sessions. I mean, you know, right now, we can't mention his name anymore, Yeah. It was a good thing. You should have been promoted when you stepped up something. I know. So I have to change water cooler. I never changed the water cooler before, and then, like, okay. I'm gonna try it. And then do it. I spill the water the whole tower. So I have to clean it out, blah blah blah. I can't. And then and then, that after a day or 2 goes by, you know, I I'm like, I wasn't reprimandful or whatever. I'm like, I guess I guess, it's like a good lessons. You know, I just have to be more careful for the next time. However, a few days later, I was supposed to go on the run to buy, like, supplies, like, coffee, fruits, and stuff like that. So I bought them. I bring the change back somehow the receptionist, the receptionist wasn't a fan of me anyway in the beginning. because I was too trippy. Like, every everyone in the studio looks at zombies, but I came in and I'm like, hey. Yeah. Yeah. Hard to be able to everyone's like, this guy. But, yeah, so I I I bring back the change. She was on the phone and she calculated, and then she'd write something down. And then a few hours later, she rang me and she's like, you miss some money. I'm like, what? I this is all the money to come back with it. She's like, no. No. No. No. You you you you missed out at $10. There's there should be a $10 in here. I'm like, no. I calculate everything. It's there. And then she's like, just didn't do it again. I'm like, okay. And then the next day I came back and I'm like, that's something wrong. I because I was never I and math is not my strong suit, but, you know, I I'm not my math is not that bad that I will miss any money. or any cash. And then I look at the paper that she wrote, so she was circling something wrong. So it's supposed to be a $10 something. So when she so called, she so called the 1 alongside the the the number. So she so she's that's why she didn't see the $10 there. I'm like, okay. And then, like, I brought back down, and I talked to her, like, hey. I think you missed this, blah blah. And then she's like, just don't do it again. the next morning, I got called into the, to the the boss, offices. And then he's like, you know, we didn't see you grow here after, like, to go. I'm like, what? I first of all, I didn't do anything, like, wrong. I I told her that, you know, And then I told him that, okay. This is what happened, and then she he looks very confused. So, obviously, Yow know, she he didn't know the whole story. And then he's like, he's like, okay. Okay. Yeah. I'm sorry that we have to do that. I'm like, okay. Yeah. So I I I got let go from from, from the studio. But -- -- not the end of the studio. Sorry. Go ahead. Okay. So you went to another studio after that. Yeah. I went to another a smaller studio after that. it was a project studio. it was a pretty modern studio, so they don't have the traditional input list or or or gearless or gear inventory. So when I went to the studio, even though I'm an intern, so I, you know, I I give them the ideas like, hey. You know, maybe we can do this. You know, we should have to input this. So I created a input list. I created a gear list. I created a inventory less. So, you know, in studio, when people book the studio, especially for drums and instruments, they will always want to see what microphone you have, and then they want to plan beforehand. Right? That's that's what engineer do is pre productions. That's why we are great at this preproduction. We plan everything. We plan every output gear, every input, what is it positions us, where what microphone do we want to use, how many channel are we using, and who is coming, and what's coming. So I create a whole system for the studio, and then eventually, they're like, okay. This is cool. And then I became a assistant engineer right after that. Incredible. Incredible. And I guess fast forward me maybe just a little bit into Yow did you get into producing podcasts? It's I'm not gonna lie. This is totally luck. This is totally luck. like, podcast was what's not a thing back in 20 15. Right? It was, like, very small. Very small. And it was, like, expensive and kind of, like, hard. You know? It is. So, I was so by then, I, I already, sort of part time engineer in the studio, you know, but what I do mostly is voice voice over post productions, because that's my strong suit. I'm great at, I'm used I used to, but I'm not sure if I can do it anymore. I used to be able to record voice over, like, ads. So when they're when the s at their s their recording, I can quickly punch in and punch out. And then when they record the next phrase, I can already sort of start editing while they are recording and then they're listening at the same time. So by the time the recording is done, for the first take, they already have 80 I already have 80% cuts or or everything done at it. I know they can listen back. So people people like, you know, big there's a phrase in in in studios saying is, you know, you want to save your client's money. you want to help your clients save money, then they will come back more. You know, it's not it's not sitting there. Take your time and charge more. It's more like you're sitting there try to help them save money, and then they will want to come back again. yeah. So I used to do a lot of voice, post productions, voice editing, I'm sorry. Voiceover. And then James came on with, Steven Davner. So my boss, James Altiture, the host of the James Altiture show and also Stephen Downer, the host of, Freakonomics. yeah. So they came on. I'm like, oh, I never done this before. but they came on with a engineer first. I know I'm like, oh, I never done this before, and then I I assist the sessions. set everything up, which everyone has water, which is very important. No one realized that when you go to a studio, the first thing you want to bring them is water. Yeah. And then they come back again, but this time without engineer, so I started recording. And then I'm like, this is very interesting. So I told my manager, like, hey. If they're coming back on again, please book me on this, you know, you know, I'm I'm good at, voice over. and post productions, that's only a handful of people want to do voice over sessions in our in our studio. So, you know, I jump on that. And then that's how I got into podcasting to start recording for, for James Alticecher. And then, so did you take over Like, the main did you take over the main engineering of that, or did you, cause you were you said you were the, like, assistant engineer, Yeah. So -- How did that?-- that? So the time was, so, the so I have multiple row in a studio. So I'm tech manager, assistant engineer, and also engineer. assistant engineer being if someone if some engineer book our studio, they need to assist them because they don't know the studio. They don't know the patch bay. They don't know the the console. So they they're still good at the stuff. But as you know, each studio is different. Every studio is different. you know, the output year is different. The patch base is different. the way the workflow the signal flow is different. The panel is different. So you usually want someone to be someone you you usually need a assistant there to help patching things. And, also, the role of assistant engineer other than helping the, engineer is So if anything goes wrong, like, in the studio, like, technical or whatever, you can troubleshoot it while your engineer and attain the the the client to sort of diffuse the situation, make it less intense. So Assistant engineers rose actually pretty, pretty important in in any kind of studio scene. But, yeah, so that time, they bought on an engineer. I was there to assist him because I know the studio. I know the patch button and stuff. And then when they booked the studio again, they hey. We just use one of your engineer and then the engineer, that recorded them. His name is Nathan. He would just send me, what he need, what he wants, then I would just set up and record for him and then send me the files. Yeah. So that's how how it sort of transitions over. But at the same time, I still have multiple roles. I still assist in the studio and I have, a great friend and the mentor that I work with, His name is Ryan Kelly. I still assist him in, like, different studios. So, the to to your listeners. So Sometimes engineer doesn't just work out from one studio. We usually go from studio to studio. Depends where the client 1 and what the client needs because every studio is different. And did you so did you then Like, was James like, oh, like, I like this guy, like, or was he, like, just booking more time and then Yow know, how did that relationship, I guess, come about? It's it's kinda strange. So James and I has we went we made we made up a origin story of how we met. So the origin story, the made up version is James found me on, like, a Chinatown and I can't speak English. And he picked me up. He's like, oh, Asian kid can do all the all the engineering stuff, and then he started teaching me English and stuff like that. I'm like, yeah. But, yeah, so that's the makeup origin that that we agree on. But, so what happened is, I start doing more of that sessions. And then, you know, back then, podcasting is still very new. It's all all the only, and that's Not many social media going into it. Like you said, like, social media is still very new. Instagram very it's very new. Facebook's been around for a while. No TikTok. you know, stuff like that. And, what happened is I'm like, okay. I started recording, and then I'm like, ah, it will be great if you have a picture with your guests at, you know, at the end. So what I started doing is I started taking picture, during the recording, and after the recording. So I'm like, hey. I took some picture for you. You know, you can use it however you want to, and then I send it to you. So I I always make sure I take that extra time and do the extra thing. I over deliver. And, and with the podcast engineer, it's also So when I started recording, back then that's no. That's not the script. That's that's Premiere Pro, but the function is very limited. There's no auto switching speakers. You know? So and then I'm and then I was, recording, and I'm like, Well, it would be great if I can, you know, save everyone time. So I started out as, you know, recording multi frac, just the multi frac, and then I tell myself, I'm like, this is not the best way to do things because then he has to edit everything. He has to re listen to everything. So what I started doing is because sometimes they have a very quick turnaround. So they have to edit right away. So, what I started doing is I started to create a whole template. I do life mixing and life printing. So for the listener, it doesn't know what's life printing, life printing means I'm recording the final product of the session. So on top of the multitrack, I route the multitrack to another track that I can, that I sort of mix down to it. And then I do live mixing. If someone talking over each other, I quickly pull Yow no more than 3 d b because they're usually the sweet spot. And then, you know, so the good thing of doing that is they can use the files right away if they want to release it the next, next day or at night. And if anything goes wrong, or some edit, they have to re edit, they can reprint again from the multitrack. So I started doing all this. Sorry. Go ahead. And what's the difference between that and say like a Jo Rogan style where it is not edited whatsoever, really. It's just like they start and stop. Right. Does that make sense? So, yes. So the different I think it's similar the difference is, the engineer wanted to the producer that, the Dan producer wanted to be more storytelling. So they will move story around, whereas Joe Rogan is like, hey. This is what you get, and this is why it's up. And, I'm not sure if Jorro gonna do any editing at the, like, multitrack editing at all, because I think he has a switcher, right, I think here, I think they'll use the black magic atom and then they switch it. So the by doing the multitrack into printing track, is that, let's say, I mess up a mix. I mess up, automations. I'm, what we call a ride. a right means, you know, if some a right means moving the fader. So if I mess up the right, I can mark it on Protwos, And then I can go back and then I can rewrite it again because the multi track wasn't affected. The only effect the only thing that's affected is my final output. So I can quickly just do it that way. And then back then, Proteus doesn't have a doesn't have the offline bouncing capabilities. This is how long ago that was. So they still have to re listen to the whole thing anyway if they bounce it. So even so if I do that, at least they can export it, you know, not applying any plugins that can export it and then just call it a day. So So my my whole idea for this for Dan was to speed up with the workflow as much as I can. And would you edit out, like, would you edit much? Like and so you're also having to listen to, right? So you're like, Right. There at the computer, hearing everything closely paying attention, what's happening live, Yeah. So, yep, so I'm so back then, I was only the engineer. I was only the recording engineer. They have a post production engineer. So if anything that's wrong, I marked it. I marked it on produce, and then I would send them a note like, hey. This happened here. That happened here. and it's up to their discretion if they want to, they've they want to take it or not. I just I had to clarify. So when I first started with James, I'm only a lowly engineer. So I'm the person at the board. I'm not producing anything. I'm not editing anything. They have the whole team that do it. but, yeah, so That's how I started with James. And then what happened is the studio closed. The studio you know, it's it's expensive to run the studio in New York today. even though it's like even though if it's a maybe a 1200 square feet, like, space, It still costs, like, at least 15 to 25 k a month for the rent. It's expensive. Right? So the the owner doesn't want to do it anymore because you know, less and less sessions happening. So I reached out to James. I reached out to a lot of my clients, but, specifically, James, like, hey. The studio is closing. I left working with you. the producer is in Florida, based in Florida. So she can't really be in the sessions anyway. She doesn't know anyone in the in, in New York City. So I'm like, hey. I have this network of studio that I know. I can book the studio for Yow, and then I can help you handle all the studios schedule for you. He's like, yeah. Sure. then I started looking, as not exclusively, but, I started booking with James more and more. And then eventually, they just call me if they need anything, then. Yeah. So that's how you're looking for James. He's like, I could save you time, basically. I can make this way easier for Yow, and it's a no brainer for him to say, yeah. Why not? Yeah. And also, yeah, because, like, you what we want to do, what I'll what our job is as an engineer, as a producer, is make the host live easy. You know, that's you know, we want you want to save them money. you want to help them save time. Yow want Yow want to remove as many frictions as possible. Let's put it away. Yeah. Yeah. And do you still Like, fast forward to your current way of producing, his show in particular. How do you do it now? Like, walk us through your current work? So -- At a higher level, not like, you know, it doesn't have to be super granular, but -- I mean, I could I could I could I can I can speak as as specific as you want. But, so I have a multiple, well, throughout the time. So, you know, it was I didn't know anything about podcasting back then. I'm like, I'm gonna use the most expensive microphone in the studio and start recording. I was using U 87. for podcasting, and that was a disaster because connected microphones to people. For those that don't know Yow much how much does that Yow, you 87, you said? 80. yeah. 87 is actually not that bad right now. Let me look it up. the price has been different. 87, you can get it, you know, for $35100. Yep. Yeah. and that's and then before you 87, I'm like, and I wanna go all out. So I would use a Neumann M 149. That that thing cost $58100. So, you know, it's not that bad. You know? I love it. Yeah. But it shows also where, you know, if you're thinking like studio, you're like, we gotta make this basically like an audio book. Right? Yeah. Like, this is gonna be -- -- sound as good as possible. You know, you'll and I did voice over my whole life. So I'm like, I'm just gonna use a voice over. I'm like, front. And how bad can it be? And then that was a big mistake because, you know, you have gas that. If the hose comes in, you're like, fine. He knows the He knows the whole shrills. He knows how to, like, you know, take care, of the mic and stuff like that. And then you have guests coming that doesn't wanna take off their jewelry. that wear, like, a velvet, not velvet, but, like, some jacket that move around and it keep picking up by condenser microphone and two condenser microphone across of 8 charter. You have crosstalk. Depends how far or how close you speak, you see it And I'm like, okay. Never again. Then I went to SMFifties, SM7. And then I'm like, that's great. SM7 with, cloud Lifter. That's that's the Swiss spot right there. So, yeah, so I started, working with that. I started working, in the in d a w, the digital audio workstation, I started working with multi tracks. So two tracks, only two tracks, and then I started bringing in, I caught a I caught it print track. So you have 3 tracks. And then, as time goes by, we started working with videos, you know, black dandets, no Descript. So videos, and then I'm like, okay. So crap. Videos. So it would take them a long time to edit if they have to go through, you know, minute by minute, second by second to see the camera angle to look for the camera angle. And then My workflow involved to 5 tracks. So 2 multi tracks. 1 actually, sorry. Yeah. 2 multi tracks. one print track and 1 more print track just for editor. So what I would do is when I record podcasting person, I didn't let my host and guess where I had fun. I have, speakers in the studio, for top pack. That's it. Because I want them to be as comfortable as possible. Like, wearing headphones sucks. I mean, you know that, right, especially in your microphones. Like, you're wearing it right now. It's sucks. It hurt your ears. so I didn't let them wear headphones. They don't have to hear me anyway because if anything, I can just talk to your speakers, just wanted to make sure that it's no feedback. So what I do is I will pan my tracks left and right, and then record into a mono print track that's for the audio producer and audio no audio producer. Sorry. post product engineer on the audio side. And then I will have another stereo track that's hard pan left and right. So just by looking at the waveform, you can tell who is talking and who is not talking. So you just put there, you can sort of see, like, okay, at this point, I have to I have to, like, you know, I have to, switch with that camera. At this point, I have to switch that camera because you can see the TheraTribe. And the reason why I'm not giving him the multitrack is because it's not dealing with audio, So I give him the the steroid track. It's already that's already mixed because I mix it, you know, while I'm while I'm recording. So the audio that he gets is already 80% done. 80 to 90%. Once again saving a bunch of time. Yep. Saving a bunch of time. He doesn't have to listen and and also people have to realize it as a different between video editor and audio editor. Video editor, some some of them, I I'm sure, like, there are people that are really good at audio and really good at video. But most of the time, people that really good at video doesn't care about audio. they didn't do cross fade. They didn't put any plugins. Maybe they'll put a denoise and call it a day. They didn't treat the voice. So you probably still need the audio editor before, audio engineer for for the video. So that's why that's why that's the reason why I did that. And all on the on the multi track, I, I have the noise running at the, real time. I have compressor running real time. So I already treat the noise treat the treat the voice, and shape the voice. However, I want to before, you know, everything. And then now fast forward to right Yow, we're doing everything remote. Life is easy. We record everything. I put it into Descript. and then split the speakers and then export it to produce and then treat it there. And then that's my final product. So you're editing. You do the initial edit in Descript. Yep. And then -- Sorry. And what are you using to do the actual recording? SquadCast. SquadCast. Yeah. Shout out to squadcast. I Yow I haven't used ekem, I mean, I'm sure they are great. I use squad cards on Riverside. The I found, you know, I the reason why I stick with squad cards is I didn't care about all the features in Riverside. to be honest. maybe some people like beginner cares because, you know, they would need all their help, but I already have Pro twos in Descript. for sports productions anyway. So I'm not using all that features. the reason why I like Swag has is So let's say if someone in the in the in the recording has bad internet, SquadCast somehow they still managed to make it workable and that you can you still can see people. You're not pixelated. You may be hearing some delay, but It's not, like, terrible. But on Riverside, if one person's Internet is bad, forget it. Right? All you will see is pixel. It looks like you're playing 8 bit console again, playing 8 bit games game. And then sometimes it's frustrating here to, like, yeah, it's very frustrating because Yow want the chemistry to keep going, even though it's, even though it's remote, you know, yeah, the least you can do is make sure you can see the person so you can feel the connections. You know? So yeah. So that's why I -- I know. Yeah. And do you think, with the do you run into, or I should say, let me ask this, the 8th time? Do you have you run into any sink drifting issues with Riverside? the SquadCast. the thing is, Oh, you didn't. But I have, did you ever you okay. So you didn't use both quadrants? I mean, I use it once. I use it once. It does have a drifting, but that was a while that was, that was during the lockdown time. So-- Still has it still has it. Yeah. Yeah. Still has it. But and it's SquadCast. It has, but it's not as, bad. But the worst you can the worst you will get is delayed if someone has a bad Internet. So the delay, I believe, is caused by the ping issues. So if you have bad Internet, you're paying us longer, the the the Internet has to, like, the the data being sent from your computer to the ISP to the server, it's it takes longer time to get there. That's and then to come back again. So that's that's that's what we call ping. and, and that's why sometimes you have delays because you have a you have a long ping. Yow have a long ping. Yeah. I think that's how you call it. Yeah. So okay. So SquadCast. And then squad cast to Descript, and then you'll export pro tools. Does James do a video podcast as well? Yeah. So, with video, I usually just use whatever it's in Descript. because it's so you just took the script. I wish there's a program that can do two ways. You know, I wish there's program can be like, hey. We're gonna take this this Descript into produce, and it will sync right back when it's done. You know? But that's not the case, unfortunately. Yeah. I see what you're saying. Yeah. And they do have the export options from Descript, but it's not the same when you bring it in to -- Yeah. -- back into the Descript. because when you when you put in when I put it into the produce, I would do a lot more finer editing, like cross fade. like, cross fades, bringing down, like, the gap, and then plugins plugins introduce delay. So Yow know, and they send that. So, yeah, so, like, I do a lot more final editing, in in in pro tools and then put music I edit music, run it in there, do ducking, and the whole shebang on the, and and everything, and then go So, like, there's no way that I can do from Descript to, produce and then back to this script. And also I have to clarify that A lot of people like, hey, you know, we can do everything in Descript. Not really. Descript is a tool. It's not a DAW at all, so people have to realize that. It is limited, unfortunately. And I would love for Descript to be able to just knock out everything, but, like, you start entering two tracks in and all of a sudden you're like, this is a different thing. Also, with just freezing and locking up stuff, like, I've you know, I work in Descript every day and it's run into issues that I just work around. But -- Yeah. And, they have update every day. Everything. Like, it's the thing. I'm like, What? Yeah. The only thing, like, super reliable with the script is that there'll be a new update available Yow need to restart. Yeah. Like, that's that's for sure. Like, that's as soon as taxes. Like, you're gonna you're gonna have a new update to do. Yeah. I wish they would do it before you open the application. When you open the application, I would I wish they were, like, okay, installing update, and they were like, okay. I'll go get a coffee or whatever and then come back at that. Now it's like, our opening, when it wait for it to load, go grab a coffee, come back, update, rest out again. Oh, and then also when I just downloaded a project and then I go to export, but then it needs to download again. I'm like, Wait a minute. You've already got -- I don't know, Canada. Yow already I don't know. Where is it? What was it before? What where were we at before? I have all the track. It's just in my in my files. Like, why are you but are you downloading? I don't know why you're downloading. So what are you downloading? It's already been downloading. Exactly. It's worked in a mysterious way. It's like it's like, you know, like, I all the time. Yeah. It's not all the time either. It's just, like, randomly on the export like, well, I'm glad this isn't a huge file because I don't have to sit that long, but it also yeah. And then some exports will take longer. Also, I don't know if you've ever, like, published it to the Descript website and then downloaded it from that. I don't do that. It to me, it's done instantly. Like, well, once it publish once it actually publishes to the to the website, it takes long to public for me. It takes long to, like, do the publish, which is why I don't do it because then you have to go to the browser. But when I just download it, from the browser that it publishes to, it's the fastest download. I'm like, this doesn't make much sense, but I did hear a Descript update from I believe it would it's the CEO and founder said something about they're coming out soon with a full, browser capability, Descript version. Yeah. It just came out. And that's supposedly his words where you know, not a direct quote, but his words where that it's way more stable than the actual app. For some reason, he said, And I was like and he didn't even sound sure why it was the case. And I don't know why, but I thought that was interesting. My guess is I think Descript is built wholly own browser. So, like, even though it's an app, but it's a it's a browser app, I guess. Yeah. So when you do it in actual browser. Maybe it's a little bit stable that way. I I I do know. I do know it's the back end of that. It just came out today. But Anything happened -- -- today? Yep. Just came out today. this morning, I believe, at least for me, I think they said they're gonna roll out. I'm not sure how that works. But, I'm not sure how much I can trust browsers. So let's say if you downloaded it, you're working, you have to do it remotely. You're like, I'm going to SquadCast movement. Now how long to do it there? What what if you have bad internet connections? Does it still work? Does it still take your files locally? Yeah. I don't know. And but if it's more stable, I'm like, do that trade off. And that seems to be you a lot of Descript. It's fantastic and there's trade offs. And it's like the do the trade offs outweigh doing it a different way. Yow know, I'm stuck on transcript based editing now. Like, I I don't really wanna go Altucher way. I don't wanna look at more waveforms. Yeah. Trend transcriptions, text based editing, it's great for for I mean, for podcasting, especially, you know, like, you know, it's Yow know what? You didn't have to listen to everything. Just look at it, read it. there's issues, scattered, blah blah. And then, you know, you can do it very as a cut from words to words. But, I mean, obviously, it's only for podcasting for music is a whole different story. But, yeah, I I my guess is there's no auto software out there, like, this script. Premier just came a premier pro just came out the hex base editing, but Yeah. It doesn't take multi track. Like, it's so it's looking at the highest level, highest layer of the tracks, and then it transcribed that if that tracks has, a silence, then it will bring in the second tracks for that for that silence durations, then they go back to the top layer. So that's still no multitrack no good multitrack text by editing out of there. Yeah. And maybe it looks like this. I don't know. Well, they yeah. Well, from what I've seen in in experience, it seems like nobody has gotten as much of a head start as Descript. And so they are just a bit better at it. But, you know, like, you and I have a a good understanding of, like, there's a lot of technology at play when we're looking at these things. And Descript is also using, and they're, like, funded by OpenAI with chat to BT, like, Yow know? So they're they're integrated. Like, they're they're built in. They're partially using AI. And so that's also a part of it too. And so there's just, like, so many little tools. I would not want to have to, like, work in that environment of, like, the production of, like, a tool like that because it's just like, there's so much. And it's probably always one thing breaks another thing. Like, it's a lot of work. Yeah. But where it's at currently is exciting. One thing with the script, I think, they keep trying to push new features. So they didn't really optimize for older features. They just keep trying to push new features. There's a lot of the tools, a lot of the even games out there. They just turn to push more features and features. I'm like, just fix whatever that's not broken. Make it better. make it stable, then you go to the next step. that's why I like, this way, sometimes you sometimes, you know, we are mad at Apple, like, oh, that's no difference between iPhone 11, iPhone 12, iPhone 12 to the iPhone 13. That's very small increment. But Every time they introduce new features, they will make sure the next when they come up with the next iPhone or next iOS, the features is stable. and usable before have, like, a crazy fee new features. You know what I mean? Yeah. So yeah. At least, you know, you know, that liable. Yeah. and optimizing for video files, audio files, the transcriptions, the accuracy of those, you know, like, just that level of detail and preciseness needed to me is like so much, and I'm just like, I'm grateful for that it works, but I still have found that. I I feel like the precision I can make in, like, a final cut video is much faster when it comes to, like, precise edits, than I could make in Descript. And I haven't actually found, like, a clear reason. It's just from making so many videos in both. that I just don't think it's as good. But -- My guess is, yeah, I think they're still not great at breaking up one word. So let's say the -- is notifications. If you look at the waveform, we know how to work around the edit. when we look at tech space, the notifications, maybe Yow cut the t i out, but the cut is at o or, like, c or something like that. So it wasn't, like, very precise. Like, this waveform is this. syllabus, dash syllabus, dash syllabus. But if we if we look at, waveform is as a trained engineer or if you edit stuff long enough. That's why I said, like, editing voice over actually saved my life, saved me so much time because recording voice over, we just have to look at waveform. Right? They have to guess what waveform is y word. So we sort of have to learn how to, read it. So Yeah. So re like, recording voice over give us the abilities to be able to look at the waveform. We'd know exactly what these labels are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is handy. And then that that skill also, it feels maybe not as much needed if someone was just primarily using Descript, but it is important to have and to skip comfortable with. And it feels like one of those things that also just comes with time and and the more experience you get, like, the time doing it. one thing I wanna highlight that I was thinking about earlier that Yow know, someone that's listening to this and they're like, you know, maybe they're doing a lot themselves and they wanna get better at doing themselves. one thing that a lot of people have an problem with is outsourcing, and the person that they're outsourcing to -- saving them actual time versus just becoming a new thing that they're Yow. Well, I instead of outsourcing this project, I'm really just managing the person that's doing it for me, and it's not really saving me as much time as I thought it would. So I'm just gonna keep doing it myself. Maybe because they partially like it, but it's not actually gonna get them to the next level because they don't have as much time to to really put forth to it, if that makes sense. and so of the things when you were talking about what you did with James is what I I kinda noticed is, like, yours just saving him a bunch of time, but you're making the you're you're making decisions that I'm making an assumption here, but making decisions that, like, he couldn't probably make because he doesn't have the experience that you have. So there's a part that makes the relationship work that he can just trust you in what you're doing and not have to spend a bunch of time doing that Did you just, like, from the get go, like, make decisions? Like, how did that, how did that work? Well, he doesn't have to look at the files. So anything on the DAW, he has no he has no idea if we have recording multi track. So whatever decision that I'm making, the, you know, the post production engineer has to, like, take it. You know? And, also, that's no harm of having more files. You know? Yeah. It's take more times download, but you have more references. so he doesn't he when he come to technology, even though he he said this all the time, even though he went to, like, school for computer science, but he doesn't know how to turn on a computer. Yow know? But, so, like, he trusts us and trusts our ability to be able to perform and to be able to make him sound as good as possible. So in that sense, he's very trusting because he know what we are doing. He trust the professional's opinion. and a lot of time, if you are just a podcast host, if you have a team with you, a technical team with you, There are some there's something that you need to know. Like, I I I remember I wrote this on Twitter. Like, hey. There's some terms that I need to know. You need to know what is gain what is volume, what is off x's, and this thing, you need to know all this thing. All, like, maybe 4 or 5 terms. That's it. You don't even you you if you didn't have to deal with the back end, like, any side of the tech stuff, thinking about it only stress you out. You know, if you're thinking about like, oh, no. I hear one click here. Oh, no. I will hear the Altucher click there. Oh, why am I engineer doesn't do this. You just have to trust them and let them do their job. So and then, you know, trust the engineer has the the best and, you know, your best intentions in their heart to make it sound as good as possible. I'm not sure if that makes sense. Hopefully, that hopefully that answer your questions. That does, yeah, that does make a lot of sense. And that trust, I think, is the keyword. That trust in that you have someone that has your back too. You know, like,-- at your skill level and with James skill level, like, there's just just recognizing that, like, hey. You got it. And if that trust isn't there, like, if you're not sure that the person that you're handing over something to, like, they're not gonna make you look good. or they're not gonna, like, catch something, you know, that is there's just not there's not trust. So it makes it a lot harder. I do have to say that I felt like the hard the tries is harder to come by this day. Every I'm not sure if you realize this. I felt like everyone's calling themselves a podcast editor now. Whether they whether they are audio guy, whether they whether they are they'd have experience or no experience. They just call themselves audio editor. And then you listen to their files, you you listen to the to the files. You're like, why why is this in mono? Yow know, and and or are you listening to the so called pyhas editor, their files? Like, why is why is why why is the music so much louder? Why is the music? It's not balanced. Why why is no DSL running? Why why when you turn down the volume, all you can hear is the siblings. You know? So, yeah, so I felt like because everyone is Ramona, it's I felt like the tries is harder to come by. For sure. Yeah. And I've noticed that people kind of, like, will do other things in this SquadCast editing is like a side job. But it's not to say that, like, it's also skill level of what you're paying for too. If, like, you don't have a budget that could accommodate, like, someone with the skill level and what, you know, they deserve to be paid for the work that they're putting in. You know, like, some simple things. I did notice, like, I I've I've I even, like, catch myself on the mono thing. It's something I think that just dims back to the earlier days of podcasting. That was, like, something that just stuck. And I think a lot of it is the thought of there's not really music on these tracks, and it's just talking. Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. So let's have a let's let's have a discussion with mono. Yeah. I I I love audio. Let's have a let's have a discussion between mono and stereo. do you think it's necessary for SquadCast to any podcast to be a a a show to be to be stereo, or does it is it better for them to be mono? I don't -- I'm just curious about your stuff. Yeah. Well, I think I think it depends. Like, are we talking like one person speaking? Just one person? Yeah. Even one person speaking with music. So so all the podcasts right now, they have music, you know, music, and then even one person talking, 2 person talking, and then they have ads, and then they have outro. So yeah. Yeah. So do you think it should be stereo or do you think it's mono? I think well, I'm always thinking like listener habits or, like, how especially like the type of podcast it is, I don't feel like a strong pull in either. I don't I don't I don't feel like, unfortunately, I don't feel much of a, like, passionate, one way or the other. Like, I don't have a big preference, unfortunately, be mainly because Yow know, when I, like, I think of speed and I think of quickness, I definitely, well, just this week, I had to fix a client's something, audio and video files because they were only, they were panned all the way to the right somehow. Whatever they were. so that was that was interesting. Someone would and it was like a music. It was a meditation. I was like, okay. Well, that, obviously, we need we need to hit something there. But, when it comes to podcasts, I I heard, like, I kind of verge on the side of, like, -- speed and agility. And I don't really care too much, honestly, as long like, that to me, that's, like, priority wise, pretty low, but that's the longest way of saying, like, I don't really care as long as it sounds as as long as a bunch of other stuff sounds good before that. Right. but what do you what do you think? I think you do have a point. I prefer stereo, because I am very strong on, audio branding. Yeah. Same. Yeah. even so, we have sub series called Wall Street, and then we use a whole different music and then a whole different thing. So when I edit intro, even though we buy the music from premium, premium beats or whatever, because sometimes, you know, you you just want you just wonder if to come up fast. They do want to, like, have some people customly make music for you. so after I get the music, I would edit them and then I will mix I'll I'll mix them. And then I will usually put in some sort of sound effects to to sort of signal that, hey. This is for this podcast. So the Wall Street in saying, we have a RMB, a hip hop music bed, and then I will put in this, the the siren sound effect because the show is about people being caught during the Wall Street time, hedge funds, you know, scamming people and stuff like that. So I want the siren so that, you know, they get, you know, they get, they get caught. And then the siren has a effect, has has the what do you call that? it's got duplicate effects. It's like when, when the car go is called double effects. Yeah. So pen left and right. So for so because of that element, I have it on stereo. So that when people listen to that, people listen to the sign first, I'm like, okay. this is what you're gonna say. This is the JSON to show. Cool. That sounds really cool. Yeah. Yeah. And then -- Just talking, I'm like, I don't know. But, like, Anytime you start to add in those more elements to it, I'm like, oh, that goes. That takes, like, something that's okay, like, cool, but then it makes it, like, really cool, you know. Yeah. It's sometimes even just a subtle subtle effects, you know, you you want you want So, like, everything has to have a concept. Right? You want someone that, like, even though they are they don't actively think about it, it's like a Easter egg. It's like Yow subconsciously hear it or subconsciously feel it. Like, okay. Oh, what? Why? I didn't realize this. And then people talk about it. I'm like, oh, wow. cool. It's like when you watch a movie, like, I just watched recently, the doctor strange, the manners of, multiverse, apparently on the on, what's her name, Elizabeth Warren's character? Elizabeth Warren. Sorry. Elizabeth what's her last name? Olsen. Elizabeth from Olsen's character, Wenda, has an in the costume has some sort of scar or whatever, and then it's people like, oh, this actually mean that she's heartbroken because she lost all this thing. I'm like, oh, that's cool. So, like, if you add some of those nuances, like, you know, you're like, it's a like, you take your podcast to the next level. So, yeah, so so having all those little, sound effects, put it in stereo, and then put it hyaline 28 kilobits. People are sitting on a half one Do you do you really need it to be, like, 320 kilo kilo Kbps, you know, for MP3? Yeah. No. Right? Yeah. Well, I think, like, I guess my philosophy behind it is I want people to notice that it's high quality and not have to be, like, This is exactly why they might not even be able to put their finger on why, like, kinda like you said. Like, they just enhances if the audio branding, but Anything that's done should, like, just keep and maintain that high level of quality standard. But anything that's, like, done that would knock that down or take them out of, like, that this feels like it to be immersed in, you know, like, full immersion and the experience to me is like the goal. And and if stereo helps that, I think, and especially in the case of, like, certain sound effects, I think is so, like, important to do so, which stereo makes sense. But -- Yeah. -- when it's like, let's just say a Zoom call or or just like a simple conversation that's being done. And I'm like, oh, there's, like, stereo, you know, there people are listening on their AirPods and they're just kinda, like, go at about their day, and it's just, business conversations and then we're like, ah, I think, you know, right, if if their music doesn't contribute to any audio branding, doesn't have any if required, then, yeah, I get it. But the the I think that running monos, you might also run into, issues with music, especially is facing issues. So the facing issues means when so in regular music, is some elements pen left, some elements pen right, and then you have that, reverb, whatever. And then sometimes when you sum it up into mono some frequency from the left and right, my clash. And then in my we call it the phasing issues, and it sounded a little bit washed and it sound like very tiny. So when you do when you do some into mono, I felt like they have to beware of, okay. Maybe maybe they have to do it from the multitrack level rather than having the steroid trial summit to mono because you want to make sure it still sounds good. Yeah. At least that's why I think. Yeah. No. Yeah. Definitely. And that, yeah, that That is a consideration. Question because, I wanna be respectful of your time. how I I have all the time. So I love talking about it. Yeah. do too. how do you work with people and how can, like, someone's listening to, like, okay. obviously, he knows what he's talking about. How do you work with people? Oh, man. This is the hard question because I felt like I should have a website, but I didn't have a website. I'm thinking about building a website, but I don't have to. But, you can, you know, you can reach out you can reach out to me on Twitter for sure. my Twitter handle is, Oh, not Twitter anyway. It's called x now. It's called x now. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. You can reach out to me on x that sounded kinda weird, but -- Sounds weird. Yeah. sounds like a like a illegal thing. I know. Sounds like a like a like a weird website that no one should go but, anyway, yeah, my handle is jay_yow07. So it's jayow_07. then you should see my name pop up JD engineer, or you can hit me up on Instagram. It's the same handle as jay_yow 7. then you should see my name, Jay, Pujian, Yow, pop up. So that's how yeah. But, let me ask you this. What do you run your SM 7 into a Cloud Lifter? No. Not with the new Roadcaster duo. I did previously when I had the first roadcaster or a couple other, like, the scarlet folks. Right? but the roadcaster duo, from everything I've learned with the revolution preamps. It has that inch using a cloud lifter actually introduces some noise. Yeah. So no cloud lifters straight into it. And, and it's good, and it's great, actually. Oh, yeah. Because, for, like, some others interface, even though, you know, like, some interface that the pre m still have still able to power it, even though the able to power it, I still use cloud lifter because I'm not sure if you if you if you, notice cloud lifter introduced a different sound. into your SSENSE 7. Yes. Cloudlifter make this sound a little bit more aggressive, a little bit more, like, in your face. That's why that's why, like, even though SSL can power it, Yow know, or focus so I can power it, I still use Altucher because Callifter the circuit or the transfer might give you the different sound. Yeah. Yeah. And I played around with a couple of them. what's the other one? I'm got other geyser in my brain right now. The -- That's the electronic? Maybe that one. I I've I've I've messed around a couple of them. just to kind of experiment with that sound too that it introduces. But I've been really happy with just like the road caster, effects and and preamps and been happy with it. I did find that, I I think I kept with the Vocaster when I was using the focus, right, broadcaster that I still did use the cloud lifter, even though I didn't have to. I just liked the sound with it on. But with the rodecaster duo, I don't I don't I don't like it, I guess. And and then I heard that thing about the noise. I was like, let's take it off. Yeah. I think that's the difference between, us and regular people. Right? Regular people are like, oh, yeah. Enough game. We didn't need sculpture. for us. It's like, we want that sound. We want that sound that that sounds sound cold. That sounds make it more make it fuller. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And there's the, I'm gonna butcher the name, but it's like the s. Sios. it's like the -- Oh. Oh. Oh. I don't know why I can't say the names in Sios. Sios. So Why can't Susan? That's a microphone, right, or something? Yeah. They they also, they also have, like, a a similar thing like the cloud lifter, but it introduces, like, a more analog warm sounding, like a tape on the sound. I was like, oh. Is it the the the launcher in line active pre m? Is that the 1? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I was like, oh, I wanna play with that, but But I haven't. And I'm just like, you know what? I just I have enough gear. I want some other toys. but -- Almost as expensive as a Yow lifter. So what is this though? Yeah. I think the Suez 1 is a bit more from with the one I'm looking at. It's like, $220. Yeah. 2.30. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I still like clouds, sir. I so I have a I so before I moved down to Georgia, I sometimes I do, recording. I've won I go to the I go to I called it the onco locations podcast recording. Mhmm. So I have a k I have a, a root case that I build it. we're so in the road case, I have the Ozamba, Pojo Ozamba-- Mhmm. -- into full channel of Callvester. directly. And then I have everything already patched. So when I go there and then because sometimes you Yow don't know how many people you're recording. Yow know? Yeah. So -- Yeah. -- that will have the 4 SM7 ready to go. And if they need more tracks, yeah, because, I think a zone book can have up to 8 tracks. and then just use the regular preem. but, yeah, sometimes they would want the audience, audience, voice to audio tracks. So, like, then I will have 3 3 tracks with that with that, rack here. We're gonna have to do a part 2 and dive into, like, something more specific even. I don't know if I think about that. Thank you so much for joining me today, Jay. It's been -- Oh, yeah. Welcome. -- and pleasure.