My guest today is Amelia Hruby. Amelia is the host of the off the grid podcast and owner of Softer Sounds Studios. Off the grid is a podcast for small business owners who want to leave social media without losing all their clients. Naturally, I was so curious about this idea of not being on social media to promote yourself. So that's what we chat a lot about in this episode. We talk about what does marketing look like if you're not on social media, how do you get the word out there, what are the pros and cons, and a lot more. I hope you find this episode as insightful as I did. Please enjoy my conversation with Emilia Hube. This is the show for digital creators by Digital Creators, hosted by me, Dylan Schmidt, a Los Angeles based content creator who loves to blend marketing, creativity, and business. Join in as we explore online entrepreneurship, creator best practices, and more. Each week, I'll bring you interviews with successful creators, tips and tricks for growing your online presence, and simple insights into the latest trends and strategies I'm seeing and using in the space. Welcome to Digital Podcaster. Welcome to Digital Podcaster, Emilia. I'm so honored to have you here today. Oh, thank you so much for having me, Dylan. I'm really been looking forward to this conversation. Me too. Can you Share a little bit about yourself with us and your podcast. Yeah, of course. So hello, digital podcaster listeners, I'm Amelia Frooby. I am a writer. I am an educator. I am a podcaster. I have a PhD in philosophy, and I use that fancy degree to start a podcast studio. Not the most traditional path, but Now I run a softer sound studio, which is a virtual podcast studio where we support creators in making shows with purpose. And we work primarily with women and MB artists, small business owners, entrepreneurs. And when I launched To softer sounds, I did it without any social media, and people were so curious how I launched a business without social media and how it became successful without social media. We have a full Client roster pretty much all the time, and we never post anything on Instagram, X, TikTok, Facebook, Anywhere. So I about 6 months into the business, I started a podcast called Off the Grid, Leaving Social Media Without Losing All Your Clients. And on that show, I share stories, strategies, and experiments For launching or growing a business without social media, and I also interview business leaders and former influencers to talk about their creative marketing strategies and the ways that they are sharing and selling their work without these Apps that we've all come to know, love, and hate a lot of the time. And what are people's first reaction typically when you tell them that who launched a business without social media. The first reaction is surprise, and then I see it Flip into, like, relief. It's like, oh my gosh. I can do that. That's a possibility for me, and it really becomes this, like, exhale of, Wow. I needed to know this was possible. I could see a sigh of relief. I don't know what the word is, but definitely, like, well, it's it's almost like a a brilliant form of marketing too because it's so, like, counterintuitive to everything going on, and and I was telling you right before we hit record, you know, surveying my audience recently, time came up with was one of the biggest obstacles to people's, perceived and and just say real obstacle in the way of them growing their content, their podcasts, their online business. And what do you do with all the free time if you're not using it on social media? Well, often, I will tell people that, unfortunately, leaving social media doesn't necessarily mean your phone addiction goes away. Like, you still might pick your phone a 1000000 times a day and just not have social media apps on it. So I definitely had some of that experience. But I think for the most part, I've been able to channel my time back into my own creative pursuits. It's part of why I can run a business Full time with a team and host my own weekly podcast that I produce and edit myself. And I also like to spend time doing things like watching movies and gardening and playing with my dog. And so, yeah, it's been a combination of other online things and some offline things now that I'm not scrolling on Instagram for hours a day. I have to ask, and I'm sure everyone is like, how do you promote anything? How do you do anything without social media? Yeah. So I am a big fan of the newsletter. I have an email newsletter. I have a couple of different Sort of email marketing channels through in my ecosystem. So there's one just for Off the Grid. There's another list that's For softer sounds, there's a personal list that I have. And so I am sending not a lot of emails, but regular emails out to people to share What I'm up to, what I'm selling, what I'm thinking about. I also, of course, podcast. So I love podcasting. I have 2, 3, 3 active shows right now of my own, depending on kind of how you're finding me and what you're interested in about my work. And, You know, I think that for a lot of people are surprised that I still make so much content because they think of content and social media as synonymous. And, really, I'm making the content, but I'm sharing it in other ways. So like I said, over email, through podcasts, And then the time I used to spend taking those things and, like, converting them into social media assets, I spend a lot more time now working on collaborations, Trying to get the content in front of other people's audiences, having conversations like this one. And so I found that that's actually way more Effective to be putting that energy into sharing my work with other people who don't know me yet instead of just, you know, throwing it up in my Instagram for an audience of Pretty much all people who've already opted into hearing from me, and not even most of those because of algorithmic suppression and all the things happening on those platforms. Can I just say this is, like, meta, not the social media platform, but how nice it is when I'm speaking with other podcasters because there's something in the delivery of the response that is just so crisp and clear? Speak with people who aren't normally on podcasts, and they might either, like, say a couple words or, like, go on for, like, 15 minutes. And it's like, Wait. Where are we going again? And it's always weird speaking with other podcasters who do it regularly that their responses are just like, Man, that's so great. Everything is just so nice and easy to understand. Yeah. I think especially because I am an editor, I self edit now. Like, even as I'm recording, I'm kind of like, okay. I am a little more concise, a little less run on. I spend so many hours a week listening to people who say very meaningful things but never finish a sentence along the way. And so I've gotten much better at completing a thought And pausing before just, like, launching into the next idea. Oh my gosh. Right? It has to be something with the editing, because There's nothing like when you're editing something, and you're like, well, I'm gonna wait. Where's the end of this thought this person just gave? It never It never finished, and then they're already out of the next. And they're like, is it me? Did I wasn't There was no end to be found. There was no end to be found. That is incredible. So, going back just a sec before I was with sidetracked on just, like, your awesome answer that was Just, so you had mentioned the conversations that you're having and The organic nature that we were introduced through Ariel, who I had on digital podcast for just a couple weeks ago, introduced us. Do you Find that, like so you mentioned more time for conversations and more presence, I would say. Is that one of the gifts of of not kind of using the high speed nature of social media as much. Yeah, absolutely. I think that there's so much research that shows The harm that social media does to our mental health, and so stepping back certainly can help us Develop more mindful habits. It can help us take better care of ourselves and our psyche, and I think that that does lend a lot more presence or make it feel easier to be more present in our lives. And then I think, you know, from my perspective as a as a creator and as a business owner, I've just really been struck by the power of relationship marketing, AKA good old fashioned networking. And because I'm not spending hours a week creating social media content and engaging, especially in the first, Like, year and a half or 2 years on my business, I did just a lot of connection calls with people. They were more necessarily Clients or prospective clients, but more just people who, you know, have a similar approach to podcasting to me or to marketing or we shared values in some other way. And growing my network and maintaining this community of people who know about my work, care about my work, And I feel the same way about them. Like, that is actually what has led to the growth of the podcast more than anything else. And it Feels counterintuitive because you would think, like, I can't grow the show 1 listener at a time. Like, I hear people say that. Like, that's so slow and challenging. But the way I think of it is I'm not growing at 1 listener at a time. I'm growing at 1 person's community at a time. So If I make a really meaningful connection, they're going to share it. And now it's not just that 1 person's gonna listen. I have, like, a whole new sort of community node that will find out about the show through them. And it's been really exciting to see this approach work really organically over the past 2 years. And, you know, I like to be really transparent, so I'm happy to share numbers, like, between the 1st 2nd season of Off the Grid. In the 1st season, My episodes are being downloaded maybe a 150, 200 downloads an episode, which is fine for a per season effort. But now we're looking at episodes that are being downloaded at least a 1000 downloads per episode or in the 1st 30 days. So I've had this sort of like 5 or 10 times growth By continuing to meet people and connect with them and ask them to share the show, and I'm just really grateful. It it really just, like, brings I have I feel a lot of gratitude that I get to know these people and that they're sharing my work. You're saying all the buzzwords in my head. I'm like, yes. Yes. Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah. Just brief backstory about me. Like, before June 2021, you wouldn't Find anything about me online, really. Yeah. Like, actively would scrub myself from social media, from Google, from all that stuff because I just didn't want unless I was intentionally putting it out there, which I wasn't putting anything out there. No podcast, no nothing. It was just like client work, but it wouldn't have my name attached to it whatsoever. You couldn't find anything about me, so for years it was, like, just behind the scenes, and I'm so big on the mindfulness around content. You know? I think it's like something that's so overlooked because content as a whole generalizing. It kind of gets lumped in with content marketing strategy, things like that, which are people when they start needing, like, a strategy on, like, how to form relationships, like, maybe that's beneficial in the very beginning or, you know, to kind of wrap your head around, like, the groundwork of, like, maybe the why or the what. But you very quickly, like, in a conversation, you have to rely on, you know, your soft skills and your natural ability to keep something going. Because I meet so many people with content, and I think is a reoccurring thing is It's like scaling something before they be even figured out the relationship, and I'm guilty still of trying to, like, scale something, but it's like, wait. Who is this for? Who am I talking to? And that even if it is, like, 1 to 1, even if it just did start there, I'm like, that's super powerful because you get so much data. Like, it's hard to get you can't get data through likes and views. You know? That's not telling what a conversation would tell you. You know? Yeah. No. Absolutely. And I think that as podcasters, it is So important to know who we're speaking to. And it's also challenging because you don't know who's listening on the other side unless you are compelling enough that they actually reach out and tell you. And in that case, then you generally are only hearing from, like, your super fans or your super haters. It's it's, like, Really, that needs to be a super strong reaction for them to actually, like, kind of take the leap to email or to somewhere else. I do think Something a trend I'm enjoying kind of witnessing in podcasting is the way that, like, Spotify is building in more interactive things so people can more easily kind of give you feedback, and you can hear from them. And that's really helpful for us as creators to know what's resonating, you know, what paths Can we go farther down? What are ideas that we loved that, like, maybe no one else cares about, which is an experience I have regularly. And So much of that like, it all happens in conversation like you're saying. And I think that kind of a position that I'm in that A lot of creators find themselves in is, like, what do you do when you really wanna value the 1 on 1, But also now your community has grown too big for you to be 1 on 1 with everyone because much as, like you know, As much as social media gave me a few like, leaving social media gave me a few extra hours a week, it didn't give me, like, 40 extra hours a week for to have connection calls. Right. Like, I I could be practical as well. And I'd prefer to have very few calls a week, not a ton of them. Have to talk everyone into bridging with Yeah. No. Like, we we can't. That's why content is so appealing. Like, It's why podcasts are appealing, like, we we wanna make content because we wanna work less, and it's kind of been sold to us as this way we can talk to a lot of people at once and that they will Appreciate what we say and then buy things from us. And I think that that works, but you have to be really good at it, and it takes time to build that skill. And I'm still trying to kinda find these ways to maintain the real, like, relationality in my work and keep that sort of face to face interaction where I can or, you know, through Zoom. It's not in person, but virtual face to face interaction. I don't wanna retreat fully into content. Like, I want a business where I am, like, living and talking to people, but I need to find ways to do that that aren't, like, overloading my calendar. And so one of the things that I've just launched as we're recording this, like, in the past week that I'm really excited to see how it works out is An online membership for off the grid listeners. It's not an ongoing community. I'm not in it for, like, the MRR, the monthly recurring revenue. It's like an annual membership where we have sort of online course library, and then we come together seasonally next year. So I'll do, like, 4 live calls with people. And that's my way of trying to both, like, be face to face and, like, talk to the people who love the show, give them the support that they need, Learn from them what they want more of and, like, maintain my energetic sovereignty. It's how I talk about it on the show. But, like, The space where I can, like, have enough creative energy to keep doing the work, keep living my life, and keep, you know, feeling good about it throughout. That intentionality, like, it seems like you bring such intention to what you do. And, You know, of course, the the reason you do what you do, but I absolutely love that you're setting up the membership from that same point of not, like, this ongoing thing. That seems to be a common thing, isn't it? Especially on online business, like, looking around at what other people are doing and, like, I have to do it this way or I have to do it that way. You're such a rule breaker, Amelia, which explains off the grid. So with the leaning in, I love how you're setting it up of, like, You're in, you're present, and then when you're off, you're off. There's not like this expectation to be on. I think that's a lot of things that people run into with social media, and podcasting, or just anytime they're building like a platform is, I need to be on all the time or at least give this illusion that I'm on all the time. Doesn't it seem that way? Yeah. It definitely seems that way. And I think that, You know, as creators or business owners, that can feel almost, like, natural or intuitive at first. Like, I'm thinking about my work most of the time, to be honest. Like, I love what I do. I'm always, like, coming up with, like, an idea for an episode, or I'm thinking about something a client needs, Sir, you know, that's that's with me a lot of the time. And so if that's true for you, then it can feel really Easy to just be like, well, I'll just throw it up on Instagram, or, well, I'll just, like, oh, yeah. It's 11 PM, but, like, I saw that person in my membership community posted something, so let me just go look at You know? Like, it's really easy. If we love our work and it's with us all the time, it's really easy to be Working or doing it all the time, and I think that that's not sustainable for a very long period of time. It's sustainable for different people for different lengths of For some people, they're like, I did it for one day, and I cannot ever do it again. For other people, they're like, I did it for 30 years, and now I have all these health problems, and I have to stop. Like, these are Kind of the narratives that we see around it, and it's something I struggle with too. I'm certainly not saying I've, like, figured it out, but I am really trying to I suppose, like, something I talk a lot about is just, like, living in alignment with my values, And I'm really trying to, I guess, model, like, making business work in a way that doesn't, like, Totally drain you and burn you out and exhaust you, and Also, does it like scale so you're so removed from your business, you're not doing anything you like anymore. Like, I'm not going that path. I'm not scaling And I'm not burning out. And I'm really trying to, like, walk this little middle this line where I managed to kind of stay in between those 2 things. And It's you know, I'm, like, 3 years in now, and it's been a journey, and I'm still learning every day, like, what works for me, what doesn't work for me, what my community likes, what they don't like. Sometimes what really works for me, they don't wanna buy it. Sometimes what they really want, I don't wanna offer it. So so we have to find that sort of, like, you know, place where we can all get the support we need. I can relate so hard with that. Yeah. The things that sometimes I'm so excited about this idea. It's like a no brainer on a way I could offer support, and it seems like the clouds have parted and, this is Perfect. And then nothing. You know? It's like, what? What do you need? This was, like, exactly what You this is what we spoke about. You know? It's like Yeah. It's like, oh, I don't know. Cool. Sounds good. It's like, what? Oh, alright. One thing I just did recently, which I wish I would have done sooner, is I got a separate phone. Like, I'm big on mindfulness. But one of the things that I Feel like kicks me out of being able to just, like, kind of be a bit in the flow is notifications. And I don't have any notifications turned on for, like, mail, or I don't even know if yeah. I have notifications turned on for text, but not like a a vibration or sound or anything. Just It pops up. I'm always, like, trying to clear things, and so I got a work phone that, like then I can keep it separated and it's been So nice. Do you have any practices that maybe are normal to you, but weird to others that you like to do as far as, and it could be anything. It doesn't matter. Small, big, whatever. Yeah. Oh, I love that. I aspire to a work phone. I think it's in my near future. It's always felt like such It's funny. Now that I say that, something like this is such a silly story I have in my head that it's, like, the ultimate luxury. I'm like, it's literally something I could pay, like, The $50 a month. Yeah. Oh, I thought the same. I, like, 100% thought the same. And when I realized, I'm like, wait. I also don't want, like, the latest model because It it shouldn't be because I don't not gonna, like, use it for that. And I tell you what, like, I forget about it at nights because I just leave it in my office. It's almost like I use it like a connected wired phone, and I walk away from it and I forget. And the next point, I'm like, oh, yeah. Oh, did wired phone, and I walk away from it. I forget. And the next morning, like, oh, yeah. Oh, was I supposed to check that? But I'm like, no. This is normal. You know? Yeah. I my, like, analogous thing would be that I have a work computer, and that made a really big difference for me. And, honestly, Part of the reason that happened is because as an editor, I just needed a much more powerful computer, and so I had to buy a new one. And then I set some pretty clear boundaries around, like, This is the computer where the work happens, and it lives in my office almost all the time. Sometimes we'll go to the couch or the porch to work, but then, like, at the end of the day, it goes into the office and it closes, and I'm done working. And I also have a home office and a door that shuts on it, and I try to, like, literally close it at the end of the day. I don't know if these are uncommon practices, but they're small ways that, yeah, that I try to create that sort of operation between work and life when you're somebody who works and lives in the same physical location. I'm trying to think of any other I mean, we've already hit so many of the the big ways that I have these counterintuitive habits or odd habits So like not being on social media, or, you know, running, not having a monthly membership, which It seems like everyone is doing and I think the other thing what's coming to mind is just like I really try to care for my clients and my work, Like, I send a lot of gifts to my clients and my team. I'm always, like, making a new sticker, sending a new postcard. I host a Halloween party for my team every year and a Valentine's party for my clients every year and we do these sort of fun, like, virtual gatherings. And For me, like, I'm an extrovert. I love people, and those are ways that I really, like, take care of the other people in my business and So take care of myself and my business. And there's something about I guess the way I'm thinking of this in relationship to your Question is, like, I do so much work to, like, separate my work from my life, but sometimes the most powerful work I do is actually the things that, like, really Integrate my humanity into my work, and that, like, makes it feel good, and makes it more sustainable for me because I feel like, okay. Right. This is about people, this is about like caring for each other, this is about celebrating together and It feels really good to do that in addition to, you know, like, closing my computer and pretending my clients don't exist. Sometimes I need that. Sometimes I need to, like, party with them And remember that we're all, like, real people and not just, like, podcasts on the Internet. Yeah. Like, virtual avatars or something. Yeah. I love that. I so I wouldn't have thought, that you're an extrovert, like, you know, generalization. Like, what if that like, oh, I'm not on social media. I'm an extrovert. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Do you mind sharing, I guess, more, because I just find it so fascinating. My perception is like, oh, like like, I'm more introverted. Social media to me is draining in the sense of like, woah. It's a lot of people. My battery is, like, starting to deplete us every minute I'm on there. But is it the is it the level of depth that's not achieved through social media that is like the off putting thing. Yeah. So this is a really Astute question. I think a lot of people leave social media because it's really overwhelming for them. And maybe one of those reasons is because they're an introvert, and they're actually like, this This does drain me, and I hear that a lot. For me, I loved social media in so many ways. Like, I thrive. Like, give me a platform and let me, like, try to be shiny, and I'm all about it. Like, I do love that. I love talking to people. I love picking up their energy, like, it really fuels me. And when I decided to leave social media, It was for many reasons, but I would say a really big one was actually an issue of values alignment. Because around the time I was leaving, there's just a lot of reporting about Instagram's terms of service, About the ways that TikTok was really getting going, and there's a lot of reporting about kind of the surveillance that these apps were doing on our phones, how If you weren't careful, you were opting in to them tracking your location at all times, tracking what you're doing in other apps, you know, apps Turning on the mic on your phone to listen. You know, I was, like, reading all of this. I was reading Shoshana Zuboff's book on surveillance capitalism, and This is where, like, my PhD in philosophy really, like, kicked on, and I was just like this I started to have this sense that, like, my thoughts were not My own. It was a little like I mean, I wasn't I'm not into well, I'll pause. I didn't sense my thoughts were not my own. And I was like, I am really influenced by the things I'm seeing here. I was looking around my house being like, wow, I own so much Stuff because people on the Internet said it was cool and it was easy to order and I spent my money on it. Or, you know, I was like, wow. I Really take seriously what this person is saying, but I'm realizing I know nothing about their life. And, actually, like, we have no mutual Friends and I have no clue if they have even actually any knowledge about this thing they're talking about. And putting all that together, I was like, oh, okay. I wanna, like, return to my own mind and figure out what I think and believe about things, and I want space to articulate that in more nuanced ways. And because I'm an extrovert, I have a very large friend group virtually and in person, And I kinda felt like I didn't need social media to fuel that part of me. So I didn't have to leave because I felt, like, personally overwhelmed. It was more about And of having these realizations about the impact it was having on my thoughts, my beliefs, the actions I was taking, particularly the things I was buying, And I wanted to step back from all of that, which I think it's something like introverts and extroverts alike can a conclusion they can come to if they so choose. A 100%, and, you know, some people watch Netflix to relax. I read consumer psychology books from the fifties and forties. You know, that's like, well, that's my way of chilling out is reading about how car companies started, you know, creating models of cars to appeal to the deeper desires of, you know, humans. Like, I love that stuff, and I live Oh my gosh. I I used to teach just to Chime in on that exact thing. I used to teach when I was in grad school. One of the classes I taught was about how the reason we eat bacon for breakfast It's because people who made bacon went to these marketing agencies and said, we wanna sell twice as much bacon. How can we sell twice as much? And they were like, Make people eat it twice a day. So they made bacon a breakfast food. It was like a it was a marketing campaign is how this happened. That's why. That we now, like, associate bacon with Breakfast. So I I'm with you. I'm very much into this sort of, like, looking at the history of how the things that we now take to be, like, Normal to eat or drive or do are sometimes just decisions that a marketing strategist makes. And we make them our personality. The extreme of the bacon craze, and I don't know where bacon stands today. I'm trying to think of, like, what the popular thing is, but where the extreme of the bacon craze definitely had to have been the bacon alarm clock that you put next to you. And when it went on and then you wake up to the smell of bacon, and it was people's identity. It probably still is. But, yeah, it is huge, and I I find that fascinating of, like, the whole identity of, you know, consumerism and and things like that. Yeah. I I find that so fascinating, and it's just crazy to think I'm, like, Wikipedia educated in this stuff and documentaries, so, like, in books and stuff. But, as far as I can tell and what I've learned is, Edward Bernays, the, like, founding father of, that's the bacon man. That's the bacon man. He's the godfather of bacon. He's the one that really you know, public relations, which started as propaganda and then turned into public relations, became, like, the person that is responsible for So much of of how we interact with, you know, things like, you know, like, even from, like, smoking, like, women, that was a thing for Mhmm. Associate linking the desires of humans with selling more products, which, you know, I think it was like a a parade New York that, You know, he's, like, we're gonna have women smoke because that was frowned upon, or illegal. I'm not sure it was illegal, but frowned upon, and so They were, you know, afraid smoking and that sold more cigarettes, and it symbolized freedom. Like, wild stuff. Yeah. I mean, the idea The experience of associating our identity with a brand or even with a product is such A uniquely like 20th, 21st century experience and really has only been around for, what, like 70 years, 80 years maybe. And we don't realize that, like, this is not the only Way to live or be, and it's actually like a very recent historical phenomenon. And I think that I love that you're bringing this up because It's learning these sorts of things that helped me realize that we can liberate ourselves from some of these choices Or, like, if it's not working for you, you don't have to do it that way. And that's really been my approach to social media in my own life and through Off The Grid, which is I often say, like, I don't actually care if any individual person or business is on social media. Like, I would say probably most off the grid listeners and community members are still on social media. Like, they haven't actually left, And that's fine with me. I'm not here to tell you what to do or not to do. What I want is to make us all realize like, is to help everyone realize it's Possible to get off of social media and still have a successful career, business, podcast, newsletter, whatever it is that you're desiring. And And that doesn't mean that you can just leave social media and do no marketing, and it will be a magical success. Like, we're also not straight up magical thinking it. Like, we're gonna put a lot of different strategies into place, and it may happen on a different timeline, and it may happen in a different way. And you may have to change Some things about what you're making, but, like, we can make it work if you don't wanna be on social media. Yeah. And it's not impossible. Like, people think it's impossible, but It's very possible. A 100% possible. The susceptibility thing too is something that I'd love to chat with you about too because I find this interesting. So, like, going back in the day for a minute, you know, in the forties, primarily, like, cars where they it was just like a this is a 42 Ford or a 43 Ford. You didn't have, like, multiple, models within a make of a car. Right? It was just like a Ford, a Chrysler, whatever other kind of cars there were. I don't know. You know, the other ones. But it was just like that. And then how do they sell more cars? They come out with, you know, different models. And then, like, looking at it, I was like, alright, how many, like, versions how many offerings does Toyota give? Right? They give I I forget exactly. It's around, like, 200 each year of, like, the different if you look at, like, the different trims and models and makes, and within, like, just a Corolla, a Toyota Corolla, I think there's 8 or 9 options. And, You know? Yeah. That's that's to appeal to different ones. You got the sporty ones, the family ones, the people, and it's each of those is marketed towards a specific person and where they're at in the, like, buying decision and how they feel this car says about their own identity and things like that. It's not like They just had to create a sport version of a Toyota Corolla. Every line has a sport version that is appealing to, like, that person. Right? The longest winded way of saying, when you're, like, marketing yourself online or you're creating content, you know, you're in this stage of, like, I need to grow, which I don't think most people realize that that makes them more susceptible to so much marketing and not knowing the person behind who's marketing it. That's also, like, marketing to them about, you know, whatever it is that they're selling, and, you know, are, like, kind of like b s meter is higher these days, but at the same time, like, people just selling this promise, or this desire feeding into this desire of, like, doing more and more. There's these people marketing towards it, but it's like, what's the alternative? You know? That's what I think a lot of people think of. It's just There's no alternative. I have to do it this way, and you're offering this whole other, you know, solution. Yeah. I'm trying to. I mean, I think that Something I really felt on social media specifically that I think speaks to what you're saying is so much of the marketing there is trying to convince us that we need things. Like, this is even true in your Corolla example. Like, I'm not really I don't think that there are, like, Twenty different types of people coming to Toyota that, like, distinctly need different Corollas. Like, Toyota has created these options, and then they're using these, like, marketing blitzes to convince people that that's what they need. And so, like, marketing can work in that, You know, more core coercive way of, like, trying to tell us what we desire. But I'm much more interested in Just trying to help people to solve the problems they actually have or find, like, joy and pleasure in the life they're actually living Rather than to, like, convince them they have a new problem. So this is something I say a lot at Softr Sounds. Like, I'm not actually in the business of convincing people they need to make a podcast. There are plenty of podcast studios out there who are in that business, who are telling everyone that they need to make a podcast. That's not the business I'm in. I'm in the business of when someone Has an inner desire to make a podcast and wants a particular type of partner and a really high quality service. That's where I step in. But I'm not trying to convince them to start a show. That's not interesting to me. And I find that when I do try to convince people to start shows even when I worked with companies where they're starting a show because it's a really, like, strategic decision, not an internally motivated one, The work to me is less fulfilling and less interesting, and so I feel similarly about marketing in general. And I think you're right. It can be very easy to be swayed in these moments to, like, really create problems that people need your thing to solve, but I just I I'm not interested in doing business that way or in creating that way. It never has felt motivating to me. Yeah. Same. And It's tapping into the problem of, like, this endless pit in a way of, like, you know, more and more and more versus What you're saying is, like, you don't even give up you can give up that idea of, you know, trying to be the next mister Beast. You know. Do you know who mister so mister Beast is his kid. No. I'm just kidding. The mister beast is on mainstream news enough that I had cut on, but I'm also just, like, yeah. We don't I think I I could be 1 and done with Trust in the world. Right? I think we all could just take a break, you know, like Yeah. I would just love to see people making Less. And, like, the common advice is to make more. And I think that when I say make less, like, I think that that invites us to make things that are more resonant, that are more impactful, that are more meaningful. I really love to see people iterating on what they make. So, like, you know, though my approach has really been about, like like, if I think about a podcast season, you know, I'll start with, like, Four to 6 episode ideas, and I'll make those. And then I'll kinda see what people are into. What are we feeling right now? What does everybody want bore of? And then whatever they like the best, I'll kinda take the top 2 things, and I'll make something, like, that goes deeper into that or that, like, approaches it from a different The or that, like, brings on an interview to help me, like, explore it in dialogue instead of just, like, what's happening in my brain. And then maybe from there, like, that turns into a product. It's A workshop, like, it maybe goes off the pod feed or maybe it becomes, you know, a webinar I do or maybe I take it as an interview to another podcast. And then from there, maybe it becomes a Keynote talk that I do I don't really do keynote talks, but I hear everyone does them in their grade. Oh, like, the app? I use the keynote. You know? Yeah. There we go. Yeah. Oh, I don't know. You know, they're just I like to see that happening as well where we're really, like, helping our ideas evolve. And that's really what I think, like it's like finding reach through resonance instead of just, like, throwing a lot of content out there to maximize Reach without really having something impactful to say. So I think most people are scared to do less, And I wanna encourage them that they can do it. And for me, what's underneath that, like to go a step deeper into this is, like, I find that most people have not actually articulated their goals for their work. Like, they don't know what they want. They, like, wanna be a creator or, like, wanna be an influencer They wanna be a business owner. But, like, that's an identity. It's not really a goal. Like, you can decide you're a Business owner today and just call yourself 1, and then you've accomplished it. But that's not what they mean. And so I think that it's really important work To get underneath that and get clear on your goals because I encounter this with podcasters all the time. I encounter this with off the grid community members and interweb members all the time. And, like, what are we actually trying to do here is what I'm always asking people. Like, Are you trying to make 6 figures off of partnerships? Okay. Is that something you actually want? Like, there we can go down that path together. Most people, I find, don't actually want that. They think they want that. They think they wanna be an influencer, but then they're like, yeah, But I wanna spend less time on social media. Or like, yeah. I want that, but I don't wanna do TikTok. And I'm like, okay. Maybe if you don't wanna be on social media and you don't wanna do TikTok, You actually want something else, or we need to come up with a great way for your newsletter to make all this money. You know? Like, I think we have to get deeper into our desires and what we want. And for me, what I want had to do with I wanted to work for myself because I've never excelled at having a boss. I don't I need, like, time freedom, and it's too much to have a traditional job. And I knew that that business, working for myself, I was like, I need to support myself and My family. And so here's how much money I need to make, and let me think about the things that I'm good at and enjoy Doing and which one do I think can actually make that amount of money? For me, it was, like, in 6 months because I needed it to happen really fast. And that's how I launched Doctor Sounds. And that sound I mean and it's a beautifully mission oriented business, but it was also a very practical, like, What's my core desire? It's, like, time freedom and financial sustainability. Like, I took those 2 core desires, and I figured it out. And I think Most people never get past the, like, I wanna be a business owner step. Incredible. Two questions for you. Almost said last question. Two questions for you. What would you like to see more of when it comes to women and non binary podcasters? I would like to see more of them in general. I would like to see More of them get the support that they need to make their shows over time. I would like to see more of them making money. Although I think, like, how money is made in the podcast industry right now is a really big question mark. So I would love you know, in my experience, I find, like, women and non binary creators to be some of the most innovative and exciting, and I'd love to see us Figure out together how to make money in podcasting in new ways that actually are sustainable and supportive. And, You know, I would really love to see more, like, networks that are really creating cool shows by, about, and for women and non binary folks that aren't simply, like, working with celebrities and big time influencers, that are just, like, Doing things that are really breaking the mold of what we think a podcast is and can be or Breaking the mold, in, like maybe the podcast is kind of a typical podcast. Like, what they're talking about is a lot more, like, Unique and different and interesting, and I'm honored that I've gotten to work on so many shows like that. You know? That softer sounds is a studio, not a network, but, Like, our roster is full of people who I just really admire for what they're doing and how they're doing it. And what I can see is that just we're all kind of burnout and trying to figure out how to keep podcasting sustainably, and so I wanna see more of that. And I'm trying to help people have and do that in their work and their lives. Beautiful. And what's the best way for people to get into your world? Yes. So I have many websites. That's gonna be the best way to find me since I'm not on social media. So if you're interested in leaving social media or listening to Off the Grid podcast, you can find A lot about that at off the grid dot fun. So there we've got the podcast itself. We've got a free leading social media toolkit that includes 3 really Eight tools, a 5 step plan for leaving any social platform, a list of 100 ways to share your work without social media, and a creative marketing ideas database. So that's a really great free tool for anyone who thinks they might wanna step back or step away from social media. If you're interested in the work I do with Softer Sounds, You can find our site at softer sounds dot studio. Come make a podcast with us, or we got a lot of free resources if you're trying to DIY your own show. And then if you're interested in just my personal work, you can find me at Amelia Frooby.com. Thank you so much for joining me today, Amelia. Oh, thanks, Dylan. This was so fun.